Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
low jump numbers, camera and low exits

 

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davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 19, 2013, 4:36 AM
Post #51 of 74 (2273 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You can't set up ANYBODY based on what the future MAY hold. You go with what is NOW.

38 jumps? He just MAY be that next world champion. But not at 38 jumps. I don't care who he is or what debatable "skills" he has. 38 jumps is not enough experience for the category of canopies you are talking about. Not on the internet, not in person.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well, nice way to MISS THE POINT, which is:

Should an inexperienced skydiver ask questions on the internet, or ask his/her instructor?

Over and over again it's preached "Ask your instructor". Now you appear to be reversing that.

I don't see how one has to be mutually exclusive to the other.

Are there questions you should ask your intsructor over and above the opinion of those on the internet? Yes.

Are there things that are so highly improbable that regardless of how well someone knows you or your skydiving ability nobody can give you an answer with any realistic degree of certainty? Yes.

Those are two seperate things. An instructor who has worked with you would be the best source of information with regards to skydiving decision making within the confines of common sense.

Regardless of who your instructor is, that cannot tell that it will be OK to turn off your AAD and open your main at 600ft on your next jump. You may have had a clean, trouble-free pull sequence for your last 38 jumps, and the rig you're jumping might have opened clean in far less than 600 ft for the last 38 jummps, but regardless of those facts, no instructor has the foresight to be able to reliably forecest your future performance (or that of your equipment) when your life may depend on their choice.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Jan 19, 2013, 4:37 AM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 19, 2013, 8:16 AM
Post #52 of 74 (2233 views)
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Re: [davelepka] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

 

And how, exactly is an INEXPERIENCED skydiver supposed to tell the difference between things he should ask an instructor, and things where his/her instructor is giving bad advice. If the newbie knows the answer, then he/she doesn't need to ask in the first place.

You are just trying to have it both ways, as is popsjumper.


urlauber

Jan 19, 2013, 11:39 AM
Post #53 of 74 (2192 views)
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Re: [cavscout73] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

This discussion made me laugh.
In the USA you are allowed to drive a car when you are 16. Without doing any monitored driving practice or education. You only have to pass the tests.
You can drive a big F250 with about 362HP. You can easily kill other people on the streets.
But in my opinion, skydiving sport, is over regulated.
If someone with 50 jumps wants to jump a small elliptical canopy and a gopro on his helmet i would recommend not to do this. But i think everyone has the right to take his own decision.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 19, 2013, 1:07 PM
Post #54 of 74 (2181 views)
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Re: [urlauber] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In the USA you are allowed to drive a car when you are 16. Without doing any monitored driving practice or education. You only have to pass the tests.


But in my opinion, skydiving sport, is over regulated.
If someone with 50 jumps wants to jump a small elliptical canopy and a gopro on his helmet i would recommend not to do this. But i think everyone has the right to take his own decision.



In reply to:

Not in Texas or California...!

Texas has mandatory drivers education and you can't get an 'unrestricted' drivers license until you're 18.

IIRC California is about that same way...I'm sure other states are either on par or heading that way.

You have to get 'certified' instruction, pass a written then a practical test proving a level of competency & be chronologically considered an adult before they turn you loose to make the usual stooopid mistakes.






Skydiving is a privileged not a right, we've learned through the piles of broken bodies & countless dents in the planet that if left to their own, many dive into the deep end long before they can even tread water.

It's set up now so that you in effect HAVE to follow a predetermined path, because it's rather hard sometimes to learn from your mistakes when you are badly broken or dead.

I remember when some instructors were never 'rated', when the only license you needed was a drivers license for beer runs - which started about noon because the morning coolers ran out, I remember when 1/2 the reserves on the DZ didn't have seals...Heck I flew jumpers for 3 years before I ever took a flying lesson!

The group was a lot smaller back then, but the fatality rate was roughly the same...that kinda tells me that taking control through the guidance of regulation has had a positive effect.

And don't think for a minute that the regulations we're dealing with right now through USPA involvement wouldn't be 10x's worse were we dealing strictly with the FAA without the buffer.


SIUCC ~ it could be worse & trust me, it's NEVER gonna be LESS regulation! Wink


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Jan 19, 2013, 1:13 PM)


urlauber

Jan 19, 2013, 1:48 PM
Post #55 of 74 (2163 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand what you mean with "privileg".
We have to keep our sport save. Otherwise it will kill our sport.
But especially in the USA the proportionality between the law and the regulations in skydiving is unreal.
You have the rigth to buy and carry arms but you are not allowed to wear a camera with les than 200 jumps..
I'm thinking hard about wihich of this things is more dangerous Wink



In reply to:
In the USA you are allowed to drive a car when you are 16. Without doing any monitored driving practice or education. You only have to pass the tests.


But in my opinion, skydiving sport, is over regulated.
If someone with 50 jumps wants to jump a small elliptical canopy and a gopro on his helmet i would recommend not to do this. But i think everyone has the right to take his own decision.



In reply to:

Not in Texas or California...!

Texas has mandatory drivers education and you can't get an 'unrestricted' drivers license until you're 18.

IIRC California is about that same way...I'm sure other states are either on par or heading that way.

You have to get 'certified' instruction, pass a written then a practical test proving a level of competency & be chronologically considered an adult before they turn you loose to make the usual stooopid mistakes.






Skydiving is a privileged not a right, we've learned through the piles of broken bodies & countless dents in the planet that if left to their own, many dive into the deep end long before they can even tread water.

It's set up now so that you in effect HAVE to follow a predetermined path, because it's rather hard sometimes to learn from your mistakes when you are badly broken or dead.

I remember when some instructors were never 'rated', when the only license you needed was a drivers license for beer runs - which started about noon because the morning coolers ran out, I remember when 1/2 the reserves on the DZ didn't have seals...Heck I flew jumpers for 3 years before I ever took a flying lesson!

The group was a lot smaller back then, but the fatality rate was roughly the same...that kinda tells me that taking control through the guidance of regulation has had a positive effect.

And don't think for a minute that the regulations we're dealing with right now through USPA involvement wouldn't be 10x's worse were we dealing strictly with the FAA without the buffer.


SIUCC ~ it could be worse & trust me, it's NEVER gonna be LESS regulation! Wink


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 19, 2013, 2:28 PM
Post #56 of 74 (2155 views)
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Re: [urlauber] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

You have the right to buy and carry arms but you are not allowed to wear a camera with les than 200 jumps...


In reply to:

Again...yes you can buy a firearm following a 'never got CAUGHT in a felony' background search, you can not carry one concealed without a permit (regulation) after receiving considerable training & education - in most states.

You are not FREE to walk into Wal-mat buy a gun and stick it in your pocket...there are all KINDS of regulations.

And no where is ANY skydiving 'regulation' that I'm aware of, does it say 'you are not allowed to jump a camera with less than 200 jumps'

It's a recommendation IIRC, those smart enough to take good advise usually observe those, some special snowflakes with madd skills don't.

Usually those that don't observe recommendations get by, but when they get bit, it's often a pretty major deal. This isn't tennis, ya can really get dirty sometimes doin' this!
Wink

It's easy enough to turn a recommendation into a regulation though...get enough people to ignore it and get dinged up...bingo ~ another regulation!


JumpRu  (D License)

Jan 20, 2013, 6:31 AM
Post #57 of 74 (2101 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Doc, I agree with every single post you've made so far on this thread. That is right, jumper in question did not break a single FAA or even USPA rule so he has every right to continue on this dangerous path he chose.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 20, 2013, 4:41 PM
Post #58 of 74 (2043 views)
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Re: [JumpRu] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi Doc, I agree with every single post you've made so far on this thread. That is right, jumper in question did not break a single FAA or even USPA rule so he has every right to continue on this dangerous path he chose.

ShockedShockedShocked







LaughLaughLaugh


5.samadhi

Jan 20, 2013, 6:10 PM
Post #59 of 74 (2023 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Im laughing at this thread..

DocPop Kallend and Davelepka thrown into a room together...

LaughLaughLaugh


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 20, 2013, 8:04 PM
Post #60 of 74 (2000 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Im laughing at this thread..

DocPop Kallend and Davelepka thrown into a room together...

Yeah, 10,000 jumps between us, a pile of ratings, world records, medals....hell, even you might be able to learn something.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jan 21, 2013, 3:48 AM
Post #61 of 74 (1939 views)
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Re: [urlauber] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In reply to:
I understand what you mean with "privileg".
We have to keep our sport save. Otherwise it will kill our sport.
But especially in the USA the proportionality between the law and the regulations in skydiving is unreal.
You have the rigth to buy and carry arms but you are not allowed to wear a camera with les than 200 jumps..
I'm thinking hard about wihich of this things is more dangerous Wink

There may not be an actual regulation about this, but a DZO may choose not to allow people to do this on his DZ.

That is his right.

It means he is a little less likely to have to pick up the smashed carcass of someone who thought they had they experience to deal with a problem associated with the wearing of a camera.

Thats a good enough reason.

And he should also expect people who use his DZ and facilities to act with common sense, and the responsibility to recognise their limitations, and the consequences of an accident on others......


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 21, 2013, 7:14 PM
Post #62 of 74 (1848 views)
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Re: [davelepka] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Im laughing at this thread..

DocPop Kallend and Davelepka thrown into a room together...

Yeah, 10,000 jumps between us, a pile of ratings, world records, medals....hell, even you might be able to learn something.

Learning is possible in two out of three cases.
LaughTongue


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 21, 2013, 7:17 PM)


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 22, 2013, 12:51 AM
Post #63 of 74 (1789 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Im laughing at this thread..

DocPop Kallend and Davelepka thrown into a room together...

Yeah, 10,000 jumps between us, a pile of ratings, world records, medals....hell, even you might be able to learn something.

Learning is possible in two out of three cases.
LaughTongue

Well since I trust your judgement and both Docpop and Kallend started off on 'aggressive' canopies, I'm off to get a Katana 107Tongue


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 22, 2013, 4:57 AM
Post #64 of 74 (1757 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Im laughing at this thread..

DocPop Kallend and Davelepka thrown into a room together...

Yeah, 10,000 jumps between us, a pile of ratings, world records, medals....hell, even you might be able to learn something.

Learning is possible in two out of three cases.
LaughTongue

Hmmm....Haha! Laugh


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 22, 2013, 4:58 AM
Post #65 of 74 (1754 views)
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Re: [nigel99] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Well since I trust your judgement and both Docpop and Kallend started off on 'aggressive' canopies, I'm off to get a Katana 107Tongue

The first canopy I bought was a Sabre2.


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 22, 2013, 5:00 AM
Post #66 of 74 (1753 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Im laughing at this thread..

DocPop Kallend and Davelepka thrown into a room together...

LaughLaughLaugh

I don't think I commented on this thread before you said this, did I?


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 22, 2013, 8:54 AM
Post #67 of 74 (1719 views)
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Re: [nigel99] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Im laughing at this thread..

DocPop Kallend and Davelepka thrown into a room together...

Yeah, 10,000 jumps between us, a pile of ratings, world records, medals....hell, even you might be able to learn something.

Learning is possible in two out of three cases.
LaughTongue

Well since I trust your judgement and both Docpop and Kallend started off on 'aggressive' canopies, I'm off to get a Katana 107Tongue

If that's what your INSTRUCTOR recommends, go for it.

My advice was to trust your instructor and not the internet forums.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 22, 2013, 3:55 PM
Post #68 of 74 (1666 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Im laughing at this thread..

DocPop Kallend and Davelepka thrown into a room together...

Yeah, 10,000 jumps between us, a pile of ratings, world records, medals....hell, even you might be able to learn something.

Learning is possible in two out of three cases.
LaughTongue

no worries, just trying to wind Andy up. I am sticking to my canopy for the foreseable future. Quite happy that 8 have lots to learn still and no rush for a sexier rig.

Well since I trust your judgement and both Docpop and Kallend started off on 'aggressive' canopies, I'm off to get a Katana 107Tongue

If that's what your INSTRUCTOR recommends, go for it.

My advice was to trust your instructor and not the internet forums.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 22, 2013, 10:07 PM
Post #69 of 74 (1596 views)
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Re: [nigel99] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
no worries, just trying to wind Andy up. I am sticking to my canopy for the foreseable future. Quite happy that 8 have lots to learn still and no rush for a sexier rig.

Damn! And I thought you liked the Velo on your Level 7.
Yeah, I know, it wasn't the smallest student Velo we had but, there ya' go!
You flew it like you stole it.
OK...I'll turn in my rating now.
LaughLaughLaughWinkTongue


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 22, 2013, 10:09 PM)


diver90  (D 32991)

Jan 25, 2013, 4:51 PM
Post #70 of 74 (1448 views)
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Re: [cavscout73] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

as a traveling skydiver I've come across a handfull of drop zones who almost always bend/break rules, when its a serious safety risk i always always ALWAYS bring up the issue to the jumper, whether its wing loading, jump numbers, pull altitudes, break off/tracking procedures, and if they dont listen bottom line i bring it up to the DZO, i dont go seeking blood, i just mention it to the DZO or manager, hey, so and so could use some coaching regarding (insert issue here)


Pulse  (D 16387)

Jan 30, 2013, 12:10 AM
Post #71 of 74 (1289 views)
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Re: [cavscout73] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you know what wing loading he was coming from as a student?


BigMikeH77  (B 39490)

Jan 30, 2013, 9:37 AM
Post #72 of 74 (1193 views)
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Re: [cavscout73] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Does anyone mind if a noob chimes in here?? I have two jumps. TWO. I wish I had more, and will in the future, but for now I have TWO. That being said, here's my take...

1) It's okay to ask questions here on the board because most of us, ESPECIALLY those new to the sport, don't live at or near the DZ and dont have daily access to our instructors.

2) It is preferable to take advice from your home DZ instructors. They are more knowledgeable with the local equipment, enviornment, and rules.

3) No one should attempt to learn to skydive via the internet, or assume that they have the experience to practically apply concepts that can only be learned through time, repetition, and effort.

4) Not unlilke the news, all jumpers - experienced and inexperienced alike - should get their information from a variety of sources and use their common sense, good judgement, and sound reasoning to determine what is the best and most accurate. Keep in mind point #2.

5) As it pertains to this discussion, I really don't believe that a jumper with 38 entries in their logbook would be the BEST person to take important advice from but would still listen to their experience and suggestions because they have more jumps than I.

6) No, I don't believe that just because someone theoretically CAN so something that most others would consider dangerous that they should. As over regulated as our sport may seem to some, we are still SELF REGULATED. If you think the rules are a pain in the butt now, just wait until a bunch of young (meaning inexperienced) jumpers do a series of stupid things and get people hurt. Then there will be cries from the whuffo masses for regulation and rules and you'll see what fun REAL restrictions are.

7) To ignore the advice and experience of more experienced jumpers, to disregard the SIM, and to "do your own thing" to the extent that it endangers yourself and others unnecessairily is to disrespect all of those that have learned the hard way - through injury and even death - so that we may not have to.

Okay I hope I havent upset anyone or stepped on any toes here... Those are just my thoughts. Now I'm going to pretend to be productive here at work.

Thanks for reading! :-)


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 30, 2013, 10:20 AM
Post #73 of 74 (1175 views)
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Re: [BigMikeH77] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for reading! :-)

In reply to:

Well said BigMike ~ keep that attitude and you'll go far! Stay safe. Cool


DTMH

Feb 25, 2013, 6:56 AM
Post #74 of 74 (942 views)
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Re: low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

thank for this debate, as an AFF jumper I'm appreciating reading the cons of trying to upgrade to quickly as a friend of mine thinks he will do.
When we chat on gopro's buying gear exc I've leaned towards discussing it with my jump coach as heeding his/her advice. I'm glad I've taken that approach

I can't wait until I get to bring my GoPro with me and have a certain sense of comfort doing so, but I'm not in a rush.. Right now just learning and enjoying the flight is pretty cool


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