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low jump numbers, camera and low exits

 

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Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 13, 2013, 4:55 PM
Post #26 of 74 (2456 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
People can do what they want. It's not your job or right to tell them what to do.

So true. You can't legislate rules at someone else's dz. At your experience level, your job is to keep yourself alive. If you're confident that you're staying safe, just stay out of the way of unsafe folks and keep your eyes open for the "lessons" you can learn by watching.

Kevin K.
LOL so much for looking out for your fellow man.

If it were me and i was seriously concerned for the other jumper, I would probably have a chat and ask if they know the possible implications of stacking the odds against themselves.

But I dont tend to stand idly by and say it's not my concern.Unimpressed


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 13, 2013, 6:14 PM
Post #27 of 74 (2419 views)
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Re: [ufk22] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:
I started jumping a Stiletto at 38 jumps. The DZO and my instructor each recommended it.

Back in those days the internet forum was rec.skydiving. Plenty of those people whined about my canopy choice just like you are whining now.

Over 2,700 jumps later I remain alive and uninjured. Along the way I won a Nationals medal and have been on 8 world record jumps of various kinds.

Basically what someone else jumps is between him/herself, the FAA and the DZO.
Anyone who would recommend a Stiletto, no matter the wingloading, to someone with 38 jumps is either a fool or someone trying to sell a canopy.


OK well I didn't want have to go here, but WTF... First, I don't think Roger Nelson was trying to sell him a canopy, because that would be who would be the one responsible in this case, if I'm not mistaken, John did his training @ skydive Chicago. Second, I do NOT think Roger Nelson was a fool. What I do know is, are the facts, and they speak loud and clear, Roger Nelson was way ahead of a lot of people in many way for many years in this sport. Many people then & and now say his was a fool for placing lightly loaded and detuned sabre's and Stiletto's into his student program was stupid and dangerous and all that shit... HE trained thousands of FJS's doing it that way with great success. I have followed that very same program, along other programs of Roger Nelson's with great results as well.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Jan 13, 2013, 6:16 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 13, 2013, 10:38 PM
Post #28 of 74 (2334 views)
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Re: [skycatcher68] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

>Having a too lightly loaded canopy can increase risk in certain conditions, as well.

Of course. And having a working reserve can increase risk in certain situations. Doesn't mean it's a good idea to go without one.




kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 14, 2013, 12:20 PM
Post #30 of 74 (2215 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:
Yes John, but as you've been telling us for near a decade, you're better and more special than all of the rest of us.

...and another example of experienced people encouraging young jumpers to ignore recommendations.
"Look at me! Look what I did and I'm OK so you will be too!"

Bullshit with a capital B.

I'll thank you John to quit encouraging our young jumpers in that manner.

On top of that, it's a disgrace that you, John, so lightly blow off those who are not still alive or uninjured...all from trying to do it your way.

I thought you were in favor of jumpers listening to their instructors rather than anonymous posters on the internet.

Or do you have a double standard?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 14, 2013, 7:24 PM
Post #31 of 74 (2077 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I thought you were in favor of jumpers listening to their instructors rather than anonymous posters on the internet.

Or do you have a double standard?

Another classic Kallend Misdirection Ploy (KMP).


You thought..LaughLaughLaugh


The standard is safety...why would you have to ask?

Oh, yeah...the KMP obsession.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 14, 2013, 7:25 PM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 15, 2013, 9:03 AM
Post #32 of 74 (1972 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I thought you were in favor of jumpers listening to their instructors rather than anonymous posters on the internet.

Or do you have a double standard?

Another classic Kallend Misdirection Ploy (KMP).


You thought..LaughLaughLaugh


The standard is safety...why would you have to ask?

Oh, yeah...the KMP obsession.

Let's try that again.

Do you think an inexperienced jumper should take the advice of their instructor, or from an anonymous source on the internet?

Pretty easy question (if you aren't trying to hide a double standard).


(This post was edited by kallend on Jan 15, 2013, 9:19 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 15, 2013, 10:24 AM
Post #33 of 74 (1950 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Your typical rhetoric, John. Again, why would you have to ask?


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 15, 2013, 10:25 AM)


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jan 15, 2013, 10:57 AM
Post #34 of 74 (1932 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's try that again.

Do you think an inexperienced jumper should take the "bad" advice of their instructor, or "bad advice" from an anonymous source on the internet?

Pretty easy question (if you aren't trying to hide a double standard).and the answer is....
d. None of the above.


(This post was edited by ufk22 on Jan 15, 2013, 10:59 AM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 15, 2013, 11:44 AM
Post #35 of 74 (1892 views)
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Re: [ufk22] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Let's try that again.

Do you think an inexperienced jumper should take the "bad" advice of their instructor, or "bad advice" from an anonymous source on the internet?

Pretty easy question (if you aren't trying to hide a double standard).
and the answer is....
d. None of the above.
How does the inexperienced jumper know which advice is "bad"? If they know, there's no need to ask,

So my question remains valid while yours is not.


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 15, 2013, 11:44 AM
Post #36 of 74 (1899 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Your typical rhetoric, John. Again, why would you have to ask?

Can't answer, can you?


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 15, 2013, 12:30 PM
Post #37 of 74 (1867 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Your typical rhetoric, John. Again, why would you have to ask?

Can't answer, can you?

Seriously ~ I'm not trying to fan the flame here Doc. Angelic

I know you mentioned your impressive resume of accomplishments with regard to skill...have you held an Instructor rating of any kind in the sport?

If not, have you ever considered it?

I honestly think that with the way you collate & present information you would have an interesting (positive) twist and be an asset in that area of the sport.

Just being curious.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 15, 2013, 3:46 PM
Post #38 of 74 (1819 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Both of you cut it out.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 15, 2013, 4:21 PM
Post #39 of 74 (1804 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Someone post that vid of the gopro foot snag?

It's not about experience, or who likes who, or whatever:

It's about decorating yourselves like a christmas tree with fishhooks, you know, for that incident that can never happen to me?

And for that argument regarding personal freedom and the "RIGHT," right, to do what you wantMad .

Every incident basically, the short version, makes it just that much harder to deal with the abutting neigbors, insurance rates, and the public in general.

Just my 2 cents
C

qudo's to the modeerator, GLAD you said it! SmileSmileSmile
C

"Both of you cut it out. " AWESOME!!! Wink


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 15, 2013, 4:23 PM
Post #40 of 74 (1804 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Do you think an inexperienced jumper should take the advice of their instructor, or from an anonymous source on the internet?

Pretty easy question (if you aren't trying to hide a double standard).

Ok, how about this - your right that advice from an instructor should be taken over and above than from an anonymous source on the internet. In that respect, you are correct.

You have, however, focused on one reply to your post and ignored others. How do you address my assertion that you have proven to be far above the 'average' skydiver, and that any course of action you followed may not be the best choice for the majority of new jumpers?

Just because something worked for you does not mean that it's advisable for others. To use your position against you, your suggestion that a Stiletto is acceptable for a jumper with 38 jumps is coming from an 'anonymous' source on the internet, and what 'real' jumpers should do is follow the advice of their 'real' instructors.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 15, 2013, 4:44 PM
Post #41 of 74 (1798 views)
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Re: [] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice talkin' to ya'.
*shaking head*


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jan 15, 2013, 6:12 PM
Post #42 of 74 (1775 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Many years ago, I was an accomplished cliff diver/gymnast. One day I took a couple friends up a 60 foot cliff over the St. Croix River. One of these guys was a very good ski jumper and pretty good gymnast. He did well, followed instructions and managed some pretty impressive dives.
The other was a football player with little athletic ability and virtually no air sense at all. He had no business being there. But, his ego was not going to let him back down. Plus, I certainly wasn’t smart enough (at age 17) to tell him to take the path to the beach. It’s amazing how water can make your skin turn black & blue. But even more amazing that he climbed back up for a second attempt. Shocked
The point is this… Just because the experienced guy knows what he’s doing doesn’t mean others should follow. Sometimes it works out ok…sometimes, not so much? Sometimes, you just have to tell them to take the path down to the beach!
Wink


(This post was edited by skyjumpenfool on Jan 15, 2013, 6:16 PM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 16, 2013, 8:08 AM
Post #43 of 74 (1631 views)
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Re: [davelepka] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Do you think an inexperienced jumper should take the advice of their instructor, or from an anonymous source on the internet?

Pretty easy question (if you aren't trying to hide a double standard).

Ok, how about this - your right that advice from an instructor should be taken over and above than from an anonymous source on the internet. In that respect, you are correct.

You have, however, focused on one reply to your post and ignored others. How do you address my assertion that you have proven to be far above the 'average' skydiver, and that any course of action you followed may not be the best choice for the majority of new jumpers?

Just because something worked for you does not mean that it's advisable for others. To use your position against you, your suggestion that a Stiletto is acceptable for a jumper with 38 jumps is coming from an 'anonymous' source on the internet, and what 'real' jumpers should do is follow the advice of their 'real' instructors.

One size does not fit all. Every case should be taken on its merits. For a newbie jumper the merits can only be evaluated by his/her instructor or other qualified individual who has observed them. Most certainly NOT by anonymous posters on internet forums.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jan 16, 2013, 10:21 AM
Post #44 of 74 (1600 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Do you think an inexperienced jumper should take the advice of their instructor, or from an anonymous source on the internet?

Pretty easy question (if you aren't trying to hide a double standard).

Ok, how about this - your right that advice from an instructor should be taken over and above than from an anonymous source on the internet. In that respect, you are correct.

You have, however, focused on one reply to your post and ignored others. How do you address my assertion that you have proven to be far above the 'average' skydiver, and that any course of action you followed may not be the best choice for the majority of new jumpers?

Just because something worked for you does not mean that it's advisable for others. To use your position against you, your suggestion that a Stiletto is acceptable for a jumper with 38 jumps is coming from an 'anonymous' source on the internet, and what 'real' jumpers should do is follow the advice of their 'real' instructors.
To get back to the real question, should anyone with 38 jumps be advised or allowed to jump a stiletto?


One size does not fit all. Every case should be taken on its merits. For a newbie jumper the merits can only be evaluated by his/her instructor or other qualified individual who has observed them. Most certainly NOT by anonymous posters on internet forums.
This isn't about arguing "one size fits all". I've been teaching skydiving for over 20 years and teaching Instructors for over 10. No one I've taught or certified with a rating has been good enough to judge a student at 38 jumps and tell me how good they will get or how badly they will injure themselves.


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 16, 2013, 9:00 PM
Post #45 of 74 (1518 views)
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Re: [ufk22] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Do you think an inexperienced jumper should take the advice of their instructor, or from an anonymous source on the internet?

Pretty easy question (if you aren't trying to hide a double standard).

Ok, how about this - your right that advice from an instructor should be taken over and above than from an anonymous source on the internet. In that respect, you are correct.

You have, however, focused on one reply to your post and ignored others. How do you address my assertion that you have proven to be far above the 'average' skydiver, and that any course of action you followed may not be the best choice for the majority of new jumpers?

Just because something worked for you does not mean that it's advisable for others. To use your position against you, your suggestion that a Stiletto is acceptable for a jumper with 38 jumps is coming from an 'anonymous' source on the internet, and what 'real' jumpers should do is follow the advice of their 'real' instructors.
To get back to the real question, should anyone with 38 jumps be advised or allowed to jump a stiletto?


One size does not fit all. Every case should be taken on its merits. For a newbie jumper the merits can only be evaluated by his/her instructor or other qualified individual who has observed them. Most certainly NOT by anonymous posters on internet forums.
This isn't about arguing "one size fits all". I've been teaching skydiving for over 20 years and teaching Instructors for over 10. No one I've taught or certified with a rating has been good enough to judge a student at 38 jumps and tell me how good they will get or how badly they will injure themselves.

But anonymous posters on internet forums can?


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 17, 2013, 4:20 AM
Post #46 of 74 (1460 views)
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Re: [ufk22] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Every case should be taken on its merits. For a newbie jumper the merits can only be evaluated by his/her instructor or other qualified individual who has observed them.

Quote:
No one I've taught or certified with a rating has been good enough to judge a student at 38 jumps and tell me how good they will get or how badly they will injure themselves.

If you have been working with a student from FJ to 38, any instructor who has been doing their job should be able to determine if the student has their head up the back side or not, in 38 jumps.... otherwise your a shitty instructor or not doing your job.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jan 17, 2013, 10:34 AM
Post #47 of 74 (1366 views)
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Re: [stratostar] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Every case should be taken on its merits. For a newbie jumper the merits can only be evaluated by his/her instructor or other qualified individual who has observed them.

Quote:
No one I've taught or certified with a rating has been good enough to judge a student at 38 jumps and tell me how good they will get or how badly they will injure themselves.

If you have been working with a student from FJ to 38, any instructor who has been doing their job should be able to determine if the student has their head up the back side or not, in 38 jumps.... otherwise your a shitty instructor or not doing your job.
I've seen a number of jumpers who, at 38 jumps, were struggling to progress, who would appear to have "their heads up their backside", that went on to be some of the best, most accomplished and safest skydivers around.
I've also seen "natural" skydivers who at 38 jumps could do no wrong get in over their heads and end up seriously injured or dead a few jumps or a few years later.
Any instructor who thinks they can judge long-term success based on short term progress is a "shitty instructor and not doing their job".
To once again get back to where this started, any instructor that would "recommend" that someone with 38 jumps buy a Stiletto is a fool.
Now, it could well be in John's case that this was not "recommended", but rather he, having MAD SKILZ, decided that he was ready for the canopy and no one seriously objected, which is quite different than recommending. To quote someone's sig line here "the fact that no one died doesn't mean it was a good decision".
Roger Nelson was an innovator in this sport and I have a great deal of respect for him, but one of the reasons we all know who he is was is that he constantly pushed the edge in everything he did. Sometimes it worked out well and sometimes it didn't.
And by the way, I've been told by many that Roger NEVER used Stilettos as part of his student program, just Sabres.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 17, 2013, 4:57 PM
Post #48 of 74 (1311 views)
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Re: [ufk22] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Guys, Guys...you are letting yourselves be misdirected.

You can't set up ANYBODY based on what the future MAY hold. You go with what is NOW.

38 jumps? He just MAY be that next world champion. But not at 38 jumps. I don't care who he is or what debatable "skills" he has. 38 jumps is not enough experience for the category of canopies you are talking about. Not on the internet, not in person.


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 18, 2013, 2:40 PM
Post #49 of 74 (1213 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Guys, Guys...you are letting yourselves be misdirected.

You can't set up ANYBODY based on what the future MAY hold. You go with what is NOW.

38 jumps? He just MAY be that next world champion. But not at 38 jumps. I don't care who he is or what debatable "skills" he has. 38 jumps is not enough experience for the category of canopies you are talking about. Not on the internet, not in person.

Well, nice way to MISS THE POINT, which is:

Should an inexperienced skydiver ask questions on the internet, or ask his/her instructor?

Over and over again it's preached "Ask your instructor". Now you appear to be reversing that.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 19, 2013, 1:25 AM
Post #50 of 74 (1157 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you really think that I was addressing YOUR "point"?
LaughLaughLaughLaugh
Since you haven't figured it out by now, I'll spell it out for you:
I have no desire to address your KMP.

Again, please do not interject your absurdities into conversations I'm having with others.

It's stalking and it's creepy

KMP.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 19, 2013, 1:48 AM)


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