Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
low jump numbers, camera and low exits

 

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cavscout73  (C 40414)

Jan 12, 2013, 6:52 PM
Post #1 of 74 (7563 views)
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low jump numbers, camera and low exits Can't Post

I was recently at a dz, where i saw a jumper with approx 100 jumps B licenced jumping a sony cx camera helmet, and exiting the plane at 2200 ft. Also being allowed to jump go pro and 1.3 /1:4-:1 wing loading right off student status.

Im only about 250 jumps into the sport and have broken a few rules along the way, as i assume most have. But the longer im around and the more i learn " sometimes by my own mistakes" when is it enough to be addressed or to do something to stop it? And how do you stop it without causing dz problems


skydiverbry  (D License)

Jan 12, 2013, 7:19 PM
Post #2 of 74 (7485 views)
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Re: [cavscout73] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Not quite sure how I'd approach the problem.

One, I would not jump nowhere near said jumper and may bring it up to the ST&A if they are not already aware.

To me IMHO this is an accident ready to happen and hopefully does not take out another jumperUnsureUnsure






Bry


adamUK  (C 104423)

Jan 13, 2013, 2:32 AM
Post #3 of 74 (7350 views)
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Re: [cavscout73] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

At 1.4 with 100 jumps he'll potentially qualify as a junior member of SoFPiDaRF. I'd point him over there and let them sort him out. Just make sure you video all his landings for, er, research purposes.


skycatcher68

Jan 13, 2013, 4:37 AM
Post #4 of 74 (7307 views)
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Re: [cavscout73] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was recently at a dz, where i saw a jumper with approx 100 jumps B licenced jumping a sony cx camera helmet, and exiting the plane at 2200 ft. Also being allowed to jump go pro and 1.3 /1:4-:1 wing loading right off student status.

Is this one jumper or four different situations?

1) B License/100 jumps with a CX Camera.

2) Exiting at 2,200.

3) Jumping with a Go-Pro (after cleared to solo?)

4) Jumping at 1.3-1.4 after cleared to solo.

1 & 3 aren't necessarily critical issues.

2 & 4 have to do with the DZO/Instructors.


Shredex

Jan 13, 2013, 5:22 AM
Post #5 of 74 (7285 views)
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Re: low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

The camera isn't really a problem. There are DZ's that allow GoPros at 50 jumps with B license. USPA just makes recommendations. But at a smaller DZ, everyone knows each other and everyone knows what you are capable of, so they often bend the rules for some people if they know they can handle it.

Low exit and high wing loading, is a problem.
Speak to him personally, maybe tell him stories you've heard of all the broken people in wheelchairs. If that doesn't work, then speak to a staff member and express your concern for this persons safety.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Jan 13, 2013, 5:37 AM
Post #6 of 74 (7278 views)
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Re: [cavscout73] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

People can do what they want. It's not your job or right to tell them what to do.


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Jan 13, 2013, 6:04 AM
Post #7 of 74 (7249 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
People can do what they want. It's not your job or right to tell them what to do.

So true. You can't legislate rules at someone else's dz. At your experience level, your job is to keep yourself alive. If you're confident that you're staying safe, just stay out of the way of unsafe folks and keep your eyes open for the "lessons" you can learn by watching.

Kevin K.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jan 13, 2013, 6:08 AM
Post #8 of 74 (7241 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
People can do what they want. It's not your job or right to tell them what to do.

Ah, the old "close the eyes and it'll go away" approach. Well done.

I'm sure you can point him in the direction of someone who does have the right to do so.

To the O.P: Don't be afraid to speak up. Quite a few people are dead because nobody did so. Safety isssues often won't win you a popularity contest,

Plenty of people will respect you for doing so though, even if they don't say so.

The ignorant always make the most noise.


cavscout73  (C 40414)

Jan 13, 2013, 6:59 AM
Post #9 of 74 (7200 views)
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Re: [skycatcher68] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Same jumper.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jan 13, 2013, 7:27 AM
Post #10 of 74 (7178 views)
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Re: [cavscout73] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

First answer, you don't have the experience and knowledge to make the call.
Second answer, you don't have any authority to do anything. I've been an instructor for 20 years and a C-E and an I-E for over 10 years and I don't have any authority to deal with something like this. Even if I was an S&TA, that authority is only good at my home DZ.
Third answer, you can talk to someone about it, but if this is permitted at this DZ, you'll just get people pissed at YOU.
Lastly, look in before looking out. You're jumping a Crossfie 2 with a little over 200 jumps, averaging about 40 jumps a year. The type of canopy is as important as wingloading, maybe more. Right now you are at the most dangerous time in you jump life. A lot of supposed knowledge, but not enough experience to use it properly. Focus on keeping yourself safe and alive and if you don't like how this DZ does things, don't go there.


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 13, 2013, 8:11 AM
Post #11 of 74 (7152 views)
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Re: [cavscout73] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I started jumping a Stiletto at 38 jumps. The DZO and my instructor each recommended it.

Back in those days the internet forum was rec.skydiving. Plenty of those people whined about my canopy choice just like you are whining now.

Over 2,700 jumps later I remain alive and uninjured. Along the way I won a Nationals medal and have been on 8 world record jumps of various kinds.

Basically what someone else jumps is between him/herself, the FAA and the DZO.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 13, 2013, 8:32 AM
Post #12 of 74 (7132 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I started jumping a Stiletto at 38 jumps

Back in those days the internet forum was rec.skydiving. Plenty of those people whined about my canopy choice

Over 2,700 jumps later I remain alive and uninjured. Along the way I won a Nationals medal and have been on 8 world record jumps of various kinds.

You've made this argument before, and I'll repeat why it's bullshit.

As quoted above, you have turned out to be an accomplished skydiver. Not only do you have the skills and judgement to continue jumping for many years and thousands of jumps, you have also proven yourself to be above average with the records you hold and the medals you have won.

In retrospect, I don't think anyone would be surprised to hear that you, or any other long-time, highly experienced, greatly accomplished skydiver was able to handle a higher performance canopy far sooner than the average.

However, when dealing with new jumpers today, we're not looking in retrospect, quite the opposite in fact. You would have to look forward, and guess how they are going to perform and what sort of judgement they will employ during their time with the canopy they are considering, and I for one do not know of anyone with the ability to predict the future in that manner.

Truth be told, there are a good number of skilled, experienced jumpers who I have a great deal of respect for, and who started jumping long after I did. Despite that, I cannot recall any of them as being 'stand-out' students who shot right out of the gate like a champion, where everyone knew they would stick with the sport and go on to be instructors or medal winning competitors. As good as they are now, they were all the same in the beginning.

The point is that there's no way to tell who is going to be the next 'Prof Kallend', and who is going to be the next divot in the landing area. For this reason, you make equipment choices and decisions about things like weather and big-ways on the conservative side, so if turns out you're dealing with a guy who might be a potential divot, you stack the deck in his favor, not accelerate his trip down the road to the ER.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jan 13, 2013, 8:39 AM
Post #13 of 74 (7118 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes John, but as you've been telling us for near a decade, you're better and more special than all of the rest of us.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 13, 2013, 8:53 AM
Post #14 of 74 (7102 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes John, but as you've been telling us for near a decade, you're better and more special than all of the rest of us.

That he's a prof says he's likely above average in understanding information and motivated, he's also a pretty good aircraft pilot...

One might expect that he would excel in skydiving, in fact if he DIDN'T it would raise flags.


Anvilbrother  (C License)

Jan 13, 2013, 10:03 AM
Post #15 of 74 (7068 views)
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Re: [skycatcher68] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Canopy type and size really have to be taken into account when hammering someone on their wing loading. I'm 1.25 on my navigator, it has a slow predictable recovery arc, and is very tame.

The game changes if you keep the 1.25 and make the canopy something of higher performance.

Brian's WL chart is a great reference for most people in the sport, but there are situations where it's safer to go higher when you are using a bigger wing or a more docile design. IMO.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jan 13, 2013, 10:54 AM
Post #16 of 74 (7038 views)
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Re: [Anvilbrother] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
but there are situations where it's safer ,,,

No. If you deviate from any accepted recommendation to go towards a more heavily loaded canopy, you end up in a "less safe" configuration. Might not be too significant, but it is a move towards more risk. Don't kid yourself.


skycatcher68

Jan 13, 2013, 11:08 AM
Post #17 of 74 (7020 views)
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Re: [Remster] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
but there are situations where it's safer ,,,

No. If you deviate from any accepted recommendation to go towards a more heavily loaded canopy, you end up in a "less safe" configuration. Might not be too significant, but it is a move towards more risk. Don't kid yourself.

Having a too lightly loaded canopy can increase risk in certain conditions, as well.


cvfd1399  (B License)

Jan 13, 2013, 11:12 AM
Post #18 of 74 (7014 views)
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Re: [Remster] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

I was referring to it being safer to be at 1.25 on a navigator student type canopy vs a katana. It is safer to be on the navigator in that situation, but according to the chart 1.25 is 1.25 regardless of canopy type or size. We're not debating 1.1 vs 1.25.

Obviously when you increase your WL you increase risk, that was never doubted, and as I said earlier Brian's chart is genious, with a few sidebar notations.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 13, 2013, 3:07 PM
Post #19 of 74 (6929 views)
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Re: [cavscout73] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Someone post that vid of the gopro foot snag?

It's not about experience, or who likes who, or whatever:

It's about decorating yourselves like a christmas tree with fishhooks, you know, for that incident that can never happen to me?

And for that argument regarding personal freedom and the "RIGHT," right, to do what you wantMad .

Every incident basically, the short version, makes it just that much harder to deal with the abutting neigbors, insurance rates, and the public in general.

Just my 2 cents
C


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jan 13, 2013, 3:31 PM
Post #20 of 74 (6904 views)
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Re: [cvfd1399] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was referring to it being safer to be at 1.25 on a navigator student type canopy vs a katana. It is safer to be on the navigator in that situation, but according to the chart 1.25 is 1.25 regardless of canopy type or size. We're not debating 1.1 vs 1.25.

Obviously when you increase your WL you increase risk, that was never doubted, and as I said earlier Brian's chart is genious, with a few sidebar notations.

The "chart" is more than just a table. http://bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

And to who said a too light load can add more risk: only if you jump in conditions you shouldn't.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 13, 2013, 3:56 PM
Post #21 of 74 (6884 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes John, but as you've been telling us for near a decade, you're better and more special than all of the rest of us.

...and another example of experienced people encouraging young jumpers to ignore recommendations.
"Look at me! Look what I did and I'm OK so you will be too!"

Bullshit with a capital B.

I'll thank you John to quit encouraging our young jumpers in that manner.

On top of that, it's a disgrace that you, John, so lightly blow off those who are not still alive or uninjured...all from trying to do it your way.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 13, 2013, 4:00 PM)


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jan 13, 2013, 4:04 PM
Post #22 of 74 (6868 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I started jumping a Stiletto at 38 jumps. The DZO and my instructor each recommended it.

Back in those days the internet forum was rec.skydiving. Plenty of those people whined about my canopy choice just like you are whining now.

Over 2,700 jumps later I remain alive and uninjured. Along the way I won a Nationals medal and have been on 8 world record jumps of various kinds.

Basically what someone else jumps is between him/herself, the FAA and the DZO.
Anyone who would recommend a Stiletto, no matter the wingloading, to someone with 38 jumps is either a fool or someone trying to sell a canopy.


monkycndo  (D License)

Jan 13, 2013, 4:05 PM
Post #23 of 74 (6866 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

So john, I assume you are still going against common wisdom and jumping that Stiletto with your wingsuit? Because when you have the skills, any canopy is OK.

And when in the pattern, you don't concern yourself with other canopy pilots or what wing/WL they are flying at their experience level?

Your sigline might indicate otherwise.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 13, 2013, 4:05 PM
Post #24 of 74 (6866 views)
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Re: [cavscout73] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

To sum it up...

Options:
1. Forget it and go to a different DZ
2. Stay, say nothing and avoid the guy
3. Stay and speak to the DZO about your concerns.

Ignore the comments about "whining". The ones that tell you that are 99% of the time the guilty ones.


Not an option:
1. Take care of yourself. Practice good, solid safety measures at all times throughout your skydiving career.


catfishhunter  (D 28796)

Jan 13, 2013, 4:17 PM
Post #25 of 74 (6852 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes John, but as you've been telling us for near a decade, you're better and more special than all of the rest of us.

One of your more brilliant post :) and it made me laugh,awesome. :)


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