Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig?

 

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Poll: dWould the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig?
There would be fewer major incidents if a skyhook were in every rig. 88 / 85%
There would be more major incidents if a skyhook were in every rig. 16 / 15%
104 total votes
 
MarsGirl  (D License)

Jan 9, 2013, 9:09 PM
Post #1 of 44 (4940 views)
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Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? Can't Post

I'm not looking to start a skyhook (MARD) vs rsl vs anything else discussion. There are enough of those here and if anyone is interested just do a search.

What prompted the question is, over the past couple of months I've heard multiple people say, "overall I think the skyhook is good and most people should have one, but not me. I'm special and because of my specialness I don't use one." Obviously I'm paraphrasing.

Now there are people out there doing things that require them to make difficult decisions about what gear to use or not use. Generally swoopers will find themselves in different situations than wingsuiters. If you're goal is to freefly, you might not want to ask a CReW dog what kind of gear you should get. But I've heard the same argument be made by different people who generally do different disciplines. By people who have decades in the sport and people who are relatively new.

So, if it can be done, avoid arguing why a skyhook is or isn't right for "you." But, if they were as ubiquitous as a 3-ring would the sport as a whole, be more or less safe?


(This post was edited by MarsGirl on Jan 9, 2013, 9:11 PM)


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 9, 2013, 9:16 PM
Post #2 of 44 (4873 views)
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Re: [MarsGirl] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally I don't think we would see any statistically significant difference.


MarsGirl  (D License)

Jan 9, 2013, 9:27 PM
Post #3 of 44 (4862 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Personally I don't think we would see any statistically significant difference.

I wanted to put that as an option but I posted it by mistake and it won't allow editing of the answers.

I was also going to tweak the other possible answers as follows:

more safe - I use a skyhook
more safe - I do not use a skyhook
less safe - I use a skyhook
less safe - I do not use a skyhook


oldwomanc6

Jan 9, 2013, 9:56 PM
Post #4 of 44 (4838 views)
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Re: [MarsGirl] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's late at night, hardly anyone has seen this.

Delete the OP. Send a PM to a mod to make sure. Repost the poll as you wish you had done originally.

Even if you don't end up getting this one erased completely, hopefully your new poll will be the one everyone will post to and this will drop off the first page.

Don't forget to say please and thank you to the mods. Tongue


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 9, 2013, 10:21 PM
Post #5 of 44 (4825 views)
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Re: [oldwomanc6] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's late at night, hardly anyone has seen this.

Delete the OP. Send a PM to a mod to make sure. Repost the poll as you wish you had done originally.

Even if you don't end up getting this one erased completely, hopefully your new poll will be the one everyone will post to and this will drop off the first page.

Don't forget to say please and thank you to the mods. Tongue

Good idea.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 9, 2013, 10:29 PM
Post #6 of 44 (4818 views)
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Re: [MarsGirl] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

The comments you hear about "I'm special" are not new. They have been said in regards to every new safety device that has ever hit the sport.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Jan 10, 2013, 7:07 AM
Post #7 of 44 (4598 views)
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Re: [MarsGirl] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

I really don't think it would make that much difference.

#1 - Booth's Law. If everyone had one, a lot of people would drop their hard decks because they could "get away with a lower cutaway."

#2 - I think that the fairly rare circumstance that a MARD is going to work where a RSL wouldn't would be balanced off by the times the MARD fails. They are more complex, and subject to failure and misrigging.

Not even all the "experts" agree that they should be used in sport gear. Bill Booth and Eric Fradet have been going back and forth on this for years.

I don't have one, don't want one. But others want and have them, that's their choice.
FWIW, I do have an AAD and a RSL.


FlyingRhenquest  (B 37920)

Jan 10, 2013, 7:15 AM
Post #8 of 44 (4588 views)
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Re: [MarsGirl] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't looked at solid numbers, but I'm led to believe that an overwhelming number of fatalities in the sport are caused by mid-air collisions or collisions with the ground caused by initiating inappropriate maneuvers at unsafe altitudes. If you're going to go after low-hanging fruit, this is where you'd want to do it. Unfortunately it's difficult to solve these two problems with nifty gizmos. The solution to those seems to be good training and awareness on the part of the skydiver.

Personally I'm fairly new to the sport and deploy at what I consider a "safe" altitude for my experience level. I have plenty of time to act in the event of a main canopy failure and had the cutaway/pull reserve procedure drilled into me constantly throughout AFF.

When I move to buy my own rig in a month or two here, the skyhook is an option that I'm seriously considering. I'll talk to our master rigger prior to making a final decision to see if there are any major drawbacks that I should be concerned about.


jimjumper  (D 11137)

Jan 10, 2013, 7:41 AM
Post #9 of 44 (4562 views)
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Re: [MarsGirl] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Try out the idea that most people won't even consider getting one till they buy new gear. Also remember that it's still a relatively new innovation. While 3 rings are now standard, some of us still remember when bolt cutters were used as a rigging tool to cut off defective 3-rings. I'll stick with my proven RSL at least till I buy new gear but that's looking 7-8 years in the future. By then maybe! all the glitches between the container manufacturers,the designer, and the materials suppliers will have been worked out.


airdvr  (D 10977)

Jan 10, 2013, 8:50 AM
Post #10 of 44 (4498 views)
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Re: [FlyingRhenquest] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you're going to go after low-hanging fruit, this is where you'd want to do it.

Hardly. This is the most frustrating of all of the fatality scenarios because it demands more user input and there is no standard emergency procedure. Hence it's the most difficult to solve.


angryelf  (D License)

Jan 10, 2013, 11:42 AM
Post #11 of 44 (4369 views)
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Re: [MarsGirl] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

How about a "No appreciable change" in the overall numbers option?

I personally like the Skyhook. It is a good system that works for a lot of different disciplines. That being said, people are dumb. A good theory that demonstrates this phenomena (of people being dumb) is "risk homeostasis". Put seat belts in a car and people will drive faster. Add airbags and they go even harder. Skydiving is dangerous, people will continue to die doing it.

Out of 6 reserve rides in the past 8 years, 2 were on Skyhooks, both involved a crossbraced canopy, spinning malfunction at a WL of over 2:1. I was really happy to have my reserve out quickly. That being said, I regularly jump other gear with standard RSL's, no AAD's/ and no RSL, etc.

The bottom line is this: 1. Personal Responsibility. (YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR ACTIONS AND THE SITUATION YOU PUT YOURSELF INTO!!!) 2. Know what you have (gear and inherent limitations of that gear), rely on YOUR TRAINING/SKILLS to save yourself when things go bad and if you land under a reserve (Conscious/Arms intact) with cutaway or reserve handles still stowed because of an AAD or RSL consider golf or bowling.

-Harry


Bertt  (D 99999)

Jan 10, 2013, 1:48 PM
Post #12 of 44 (4281 views)
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Re: [MarsGirl] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't vote because you didn't put "No Difference" or "Boobies" as possible choices.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 10, 2013, 1:52 PM
Post #13 of 44 (4279 views)
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Re: [MarsGirl] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

I resemble that remark:

"nifty gizmos."

Isn't my paracommander a nifty gizmo???
C
Pirate


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 10, 2013, 3:54 PM
Post #14 of 44 (4199 views)
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Re: [MarsGirl] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

No real difference. Slight increase in saves who cut away low. Slight increase in deaths due to people cutting away insanely low because "they have a skyhook." Slight increase in problems due to complexity.


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Jan 10, 2013, 7:43 PM
Post #15 of 44 (4102 views)
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Re: [MarsGirl] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

If skyhooks were required in every rig the sport would appear safer because less people would be able to afford gear so less jumps would be made so there would be less accidents. It wouldn't really be any safer but it would make people feel good.


toolbox  (D 18778)

Jan 11, 2013, 3:24 AM
Post #16 of 44 (3981 views)
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Re: [billvon] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with you 100%
FlyingRhenquest makes good points about the more prevalent problems as well.


(This post was edited by toolbox on Jan 11, 2013, 3:25 AM)


FlyingRhenquest  (B 37920)

Jan 11, 2013, 6:31 AM
Post #17 of 44 (3937 views)
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Re: [toolbox] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

We actually had a discussion along these lines last night after the water training, wherein our instructor told a story the moral to which appeared to be "Don't pull so low! And if your canopy isn't flyable when you hit your decision altitude, cut it away!" It sounds like it's very easy to want to fight it, and it's very easy to lose a lot of altitude while you're fighting the canopy instead of being altitude aware. So if you get into a situation like that and find yourself at 1000 feet with a canopy you can't control, well now you have a problem.

And maybe at that point a skyhook does make cutting away safer, but a better option is to not make the series of decisions that puts you into that situation in the first place. If you make that series of decisions on a regular basis I can think of a better safety device you should consider; a bowling ball.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jan 12, 2013, 10:11 AM
Post #18 of 44 (3760 views)
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Re: [FlyingRhenquest] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sometimes you have a hard cutaway, for various reasons.
Sometimes if you have no RSL at all you have a hard reserve pull, for various reasons.
Sometimes you get injured or have a medical problem during the jump, have main mal and can just barely function in time to deal with it.
Sometimes you're in a canopy collision dirty low and it's not your fault.

The bowling speech reference is a nice cliche, but its grossly over-used in here.


airgord  (D 15258)

Jan 12, 2013, 11:43 AM
Post #19 of 44 (3726 views)
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Re: [MarsGirl] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

As soon as you invent a more idiot-proof rig they'll come out with a better idiot.


FlyBear

Jan 12, 2013, 12:06 PM
Post #20 of 44 (3714 views)
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Re: [airgord] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As soon as you invent a more idiot-proof rig they'll come out with a better idiot.

Totally agree with this comment.

We have never had skydiving equipment as safe as it is nowadays. The statistics show, that gear-related injuries or fatalities are quite rare. Thats why I don't think, that a skyhook would change anything.

As already said, it will maybe even cause more problems. Because jumpers will forget about some elementary things. Instead of cutting away at 600m, they'll cut away at 400m, because of the "skyhook"-promo-video which said that they'll be under reserve 4 seconds after chopping the main.

Although I ordered a skyhook rig myself and I'm convinced of the whole system, I think it could cause more injuries and fatalities because of some naive jumpers out there. That would make the whole sport look much more dangerous than it actually is. Its difficult.


oldwomanc6

Jan 12, 2013, 3:59 PM
Post #21 of 44 (3649 views)
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Re: [airgord] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As soon as you invent a more idiot-proof rig they'll come out with a better idiot.

That, in a nutshell, is Booth's law.


sundevil777  (D License)

Jan 12, 2013, 10:40 PM
Post #22 of 44 (3566 views)
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Re: [oldwomanc6] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
As soon as you invent a more idiot-proof rig they'll come out with a better idiot.

That, in a nutshell, is Booth's law.

He didn't make it up. It is just a corollary to Murphy's law, with the word rig inserted.

There are lots of adaptations of Murphy's law, some of which are applicable to this discussion of the merits of a MARD, such as...

Quote:
Nature always sides with the hidden flaw
Corollary: The hidden flaw never stays hidden for long.

Some of these were attributed to an author...
Quote:
Manly's Maxim: Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.

And the not to be forgotten...

Quote:
Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage, sometimes with shredded carrots.


BigBUG  (D License)

Jan 13, 2013, 3:46 AM
Post #23 of 44 (3542 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

I do not know about statistics and impact of such systems on a incidients rate.

But I personally do not want it in my rig, thanks. I do not have RSL either, only AAD.

I strongly believe that you couldn't create a complete foolproof system. What you do when you try is just make fools be more creative and give them more complicated ways to show their foolness.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Jan 13, 2013, 4:50 PM
Post #24 of 44 (3448 views)
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Re: [MarsGirl] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been in the sport a few years, still pretty active and have seen all the various "new stuff" over the years.

I've listened to and even participated in the debate about Skyhooks.

I have a couple of friends - the most recent two seasons ago - who I believe would be alive today had they had the Skyhook.

I've heard all the rhetoric about how the Skyhook would/will kill people but have not actually spoken to anyone with any evidence that it has happend.

I use the Skyhook and have a couple of cut-aways with it.

I think I'll keep it hooked up.


.


(This post was edited by Skydivesg on Jan 13, 2013, 4:51 PM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jan 14, 2013, 9:33 AM
Post #25 of 44 (3286 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Would the sport, as a whole, be more or less safe if a skyhook were in every rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Would they have been alive with just an RSL, or would they have used the whole Skyhook package?
(Mind you, RSL's aren't 'cool' although Skyhooks are to some degree...)


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