Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Tight fitting reserve Pros & Cons

 

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JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Jan 8, 2013, 10:41 AM
Post #26 of 37 (1442 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Tight fitting reserve Pros & Cons [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Dear Mr Sherman, it's time to post the stuck freebag vid again...

As you requested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5_KLch6ziA


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 8, 2013, 12:42 PM
Post #27 of 37 (1415 views)
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Re: [potatoman] Tight fitting reserve Pros & Cons [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As the topic.

I am getting new gear, but would prefer the reserve to be a bit bigger than the main. From the manufacturer, they say the bigger reserve will fit, but fairly tight fit.

I am questioning:
would it damage the container/flaps over time being very tight, stitching etc.
Any slower opening, or bigger chance of not opening in time.
My reserve packer going to swear at me.
Other pros/cons?

Firstly I would ask that you look at this most recent similar thread and topic :http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4400441;page=unread#unread
"Full Fitting," if you care to do a search.

My point being choose your (Gucci) Blush container wisely young grasshopper! Know why you do the things you do. I upsized my container because of the advice I got here on this Forum, because of the lack of hard info from some of the manufacturers! Now in their defence...John LeBlanc told me to choose the size of your reserve FIRST WITHOUT ANY CONSIDERATION OF CONTAINER SIZE. "Factors to consider,...what are you comfortable with,...remember you may not be in the best of moods,..or condition,...do you really want to jump the smallest canopy in your life when you may be compromised,...you could be unconscious!!!,...."

Every other manufacturer in Deland said the same to me! (In their defence, Including Nancy, Bill, Mark, Mike, Tara, and a whole bunch more!)

YA I WANTED TO LOOK COOL, TOO.
But I bit the bullet and purchased larger! What UPT calls "Standard" size container as compared with what they call "Full Fitting." (I love my Racer as well, John.)

However during this process, I was looking at the charts, and based upon the charts, I simply looked only at the suggested sizes,...if the manf. say's it fits, then it fits? Right?

Wrong.

The manufacturers of this equipment don't have any control over what the customers stick in them, they do the best they can. I suspect this is why so many of them won't or are, perhaps, unable to post the sensible and long overdue "Extraction Forces," required to ensure our safety. Mr. John Sherman has personally undertaken, with limited success, to do the best he can to illustrate this often neglected aspect of what should be common sense.

See This link, or do a search for "Extraction Forces Check." Or visit P.L.,Inc., site : http://www.jumpshack.com/default.asp?CategoryID=TECH&PageID=18pounds&SortBy=DATE_D Thanks to JS for this!!

No-one wants to see a fatal caused by a "container Lock," (I just made that up) anyways lot's to think about here,...what is your riggers responsibility in all of this? What is the manuf. responsibility? Peersonally I blame the whole industry for this insane downsizing trend...Yes I recognize the rights of an individual to do as he pleases,...BUT AT THE SAME TIME recognize What brian G says when he says: Your rights end, where someone elses begin,...

I will support, by purchasing, and only reccommend for the rest of my life, the first manufactrer who refuses to make containers where the reserve is by design one size smaller than the main! I will do the same to the first manf. that stops this insane downsizing trend by refusing to manufacture containes without checking the wing loading of who they sell their equipment to.

Untill then it is the individual responsibility of all of us to know what forces are required to extract every component of the equipment that we all count on to save our hides!!!

Just my 2 cents for today...
C


Deyan  (D 322)

Jan 8, 2013, 1:37 PM
Post #28 of 37 (1399 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] Tight fitting reserve Pros & Cons [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Jerry,

Quote:
While I do not have any Wonderhog/Vectors here to take a photo of, I do believe that the TSO marking on the container does made some comment about what canopy is to be used. Anyone out there have rig to take a photo of and post?

Good enough ?! Wink
Attachments: wonderhog.jpg (125 KB)


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Jan 8, 2013, 1:42 PM
Post #29 of 37 (1396 views)
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Re: [Deyan] Tight fitting reserve Pros & Cons [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Deyan,

Quote:
Good enough ?!

Yup, sure is.

And for you history buffs; I think it used to reference a Pioneer 26 ft Lo-Po. But then along came the square reserves.

JerryBaumchen


Deyan  (D 322)

Jan 8, 2013, 1:49 PM
Post #30 of 37 (1391 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] Tight fitting reserve Pros & Cons [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And for you history buffs; I think it used to reference a Pioneer 26 ft Lo-Po. But then along came the square reserves.

I'll check our H&C graveyard for something a bit older....Wink


theonlyski  (D License)

Jan 8, 2013, 6:46 PM
Post #31 of 37 (1351 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] Tight fitting reserve Pros & Cons [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi Deyan,

Quote:
Good enough ?!

Yup, sure is.

And for you history buffs; I think it used to reference a Pioneer 26 ft Lo-Po. But then along came the square reserves.

JerryBaumchen

Like this?Wink
Attachments: photo.JPG (157 KB)


potatoman  (Student)

Jan 8, 2013, 10:33 PM
Post #32 of 37 (1314 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Tight fitting reserve Pros & Cons [In reply to] Can't Post

Good reads. For 1, this is not for fashion.

This is to not have a container, where the main fits very loose, but the reserve fits tight. So, which way do we go. I would rather have my reserve be comfortable, than have a comfort fit on the main, and then possible issues on the reserve.

Anyways, I made my mind up from all the info you guys gave me. (and it is fairly conservative) Thanx.


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Jan 9, 2013, 11:49 AM
Post #33 of 37 (1251 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Tight fitting reserve Pros & Cons [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Robert,

Quote:
Like this?

Yes, indeed.

It's always nice to know that the old memory still functions somewhat.

Tongue

JerryBaumchen


theonlyski  (D License)

Jan 9, 2013, 11:52 AM
Post #34 of 37 (1247 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] Tight fitting reserve Pros & Cons [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi Robert,

Quote:
Like this?

Yes, indeed.

It's always nice to know that the old memory still functions somewhat.

Tongue

JerryBaumchen

I just happen to have an old Wonderhog in the closet here. Angelic


p.w.stockwell  (D 8496)

Jan 11, 2013, 5:29 PM
Post #35 of 37 (1171 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Tight fitting reserve Pros & Cons [In reply to] Can't Post

Keep up all the good advice gentlemen. I have adopted John's procedure for opening reserves and already the results are surprising. I have had a container where the pilot chute only jumped 18" out of the container. That would not be good as you hurtle through 750ft, having lost altitude awareness, perfectible flat and stable with your reserve pilot chute in your burble.

I just did an extraction force test on another customers container and it was 32lb. Pilot chute jumped a clear 6ft for all the help that would be if you are sub terminal say getting out on an aircraft emergency! Its all scary stuff. I am now documenting every reserve I open for pilot chute clearance height and extraction force.Crazy


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Jan 11, 2013, 6:43 PM
Post #36 of 37 (1151 views)
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Re: [p.w.stockwell] Tight fitting reserve Pros & Cons [In reply to] Can't Post

How are you testing the launch? Having it on the floor, facing up, or on your back launching horizontally? How are you measuring the pull forces?


p.w.stockwell  (D 8496)

Jan 13, 2013, 8:20 AM
Post #37 of 37 (1069 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Tight fitting reserve Pros & Cons [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How are you testing the launch? Having it on the floor, facing up, or on your back launching horizontally? How are you measuring the pull forces?

Pretty much as john has outlined on the Jump shack Webb site. With the rig on the owners back laying prone on the floor and the main still in place. The pilot chute should clear at least to eye level (4 to 5 ft). The extraction is measured by pulling the bridal between 20 to 30 degrees from vertical towards the jumpers head using a luggage scale (that is supposed to be the direction of least resistance). Its not lab conditions but it is practical in the field and simple to do. What it does provide is comparable information and will raise Alarm bells for anything that deviates much from the norm.

It would be nice to use a measuring scale and video every opening but what we do has to be practical and easy otherwise few will adopt it. At the moment I think comparative performance is more useful than very accurate measuring and our results are on containers that have been packed for a reasonably long period, 6 months (in the UK) or 120 days in the USA. When there is an investigation of an incident the manufacturer can never replicate the exact circumstances because he can't leave six days between each test let alone six months..

As I said already I have been getting unexpected result that have surprised me. Of course its not necessarily the case that a high extraction force means a rig should be grounded but the owner needs to understand the implications. It may be his rig with its high extraction force is good for radical Free Flying but if he had an aircraft emergency at 800ft he would be better off to stay in (unless the wings have fallen off) where as another jumper with his Racer or single pin Pop top would be better off leaving the aircraft and I would not recommend a container with a high exaction force for doing demos.

I believe its become necessary for us as riggers and advanced packers (in the UK) to make it obvious that we are taking notice of this type of performance issue and educating jumpers so they can make informed purchasing decisions. The strongest incentive for manufacturers to change is after all what the customer demands.


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