Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Newbie bought questionable gear. Where to now?

 


chedlin  (A 65914)

Jan 9, 2013, 7:27 AM
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Newbie bought questionable gear. Where to now? Can't Post

I got measured, picked colors, and wrote a check. I knew I was getting a new container, new Vigil AAD, and a used Pilot 210. What I didn't do was ask enough questions about the used reserve. It turned out to be a 1994 Raven I. This was included on the container order form and now I have an obscure size combination, a Wings W12-3.

My reserve wing loading is 1.1 and I started using this on Jump 11.

I just started paying more attention to the gear side of things. I just realized that the never exceed weight on that canopy is 185 lbs. I am 180 without gear.

It appears that the largest modern reserve I can get in my container is a PD Optimum 176. If I show up at a different DZ with either my Raven I or a PD Optimum 176 and 32 jumps, are they going to let me on the plane? Am I crazy to use this?

Thank you for any input.


Deci  (D 1046)

Jan 9, 2013, 8:55 AM
Post #2 of 16 (1634 views)
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Re: [chedlin] Newbie bought questionable gear. Where to now? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you showed up to get that reserve packed, and I knew how much you weigh, I would not pack it for you. Having said this - that reserve would be ok for someone who doesn't exceed the placarded maximum.

I've made some of my customers buy different reserve in this exact scenario (tiny micro-ravens).

Now at your weight and experience level, you'll proably need a different container as well.

As for the DZ, that varies widly. Some would let you jump as long as it's in date, the better places would hopefully ask some questions...


(This post was edited by Deci on Jan 9, 2013, 9:00 AM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jan 9, 2013, 9:43 AM
Post #3 of 16 (1570 views)
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Re: [chedlin] Newbie bought questionable gear. Where to now? [In reply to] Can't Post

Your reserve is still certified for 254 lbs, even if the placarded recommendation is 185.

You'd be loading at something like 1.15.
( (180+30)/181 = 1.16 )

It was pretty common at one time to start loading smaller Ravens more than originally recommended, as more experienced jumpers got used to loadings of more than 1:1 on F-111. People didn't always expect picture perfect landings under their reserves anyway.

Still, it really is not the best wing loading at 32 jumps, adding risk. But it is usable. Your choice. A DZ that is sharp eyed about gear might not be as accepting. Other more modern reserve designs like the PD Reserve or Optimum would flare a little nicer. But even the Optimum 176 chart suggests 195-220 lbs is 'Advanced'. Even a nice flaring canopy has to be flared correctly to land nicely.


mark  (D 6108)

Jan 9, 2013, 10:10 AM
Post #4 of 16 (1526 views)
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Re: [chedlin] Newbie bought questionable gear. Where to now? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
. . . the used reserve. It turned out to be a 1994 Raven I.

<snip>

It appears that the largest modern reserve I can get in my container is a PD Optimum 176.
.

According to the Wings sizing chart, a Raven 1 packs about the same as PDR-176. If this is so, an Optimum-193 should fit okay.

Mark


chedlin  (A 65914)

Jan 9, 2013, 10:15 AM
Post #5 of 16 (1517 views)
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Re: [mark] Newbie bought questionable gear. Where to now? [In reply to] Can't Post

An Optimum 193 I could go for. I'll talk to my local rigger (and maybe call a few other DZ's within a reasonable driving distance) and see how they feel about putting that in there.

I know safety comes first, but who wouldn't be hesitant to switch from a brand new custom container?

Sunrise did tell me 173 on the phone.


Deci  (D 1046)

Jan 9, 2013, 10:30 AM
Post #6 of 16 (1495 views)
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Re: [chedlin] Newbie bought questionable gear. Where to now? [In reply to] Can't Post

See the other recent thread about tight reserves.

I'm not familiar with an OP193 in that size of Wings....


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Jan 9, 2013, 12:30 PM
Post #7 of 16 (1392 views)
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Re: [chedlin] Newbie bought questionable gear. Where to now? [In reply to] Can't Post

Are you sure about that size? The wings sizing chart here http://www.garlyn.co.nz/...ingsizingchart2.html says that a 12 would be nowhere near as big as yours. What would seem correct from that chart is a w19

The wings w14 on their stock list only holds a 190/176 combo as well - which makes it seem that a size 12 is a bit off.

Quite likely because it is an older raven - it probably will have Dacron lines. If so they pack larger than a modern reserve with spectra. So that adds space as well. I would be surprised if a raven 1 181 with Dacron lines didn't have a similar pack volume to a 190 optimum or smart.

You wrote in your last post that wings told you 173 which doesn't make sense - it would either be pd 176 or 193. I know the optimums pack smaller than the regular pd reserve, but so do smarts and firebolts. You might also could find a used tempo 190 that would fit in there as well.

A 1.1 wingloading on a reserve is not outrageous. They are designed to be more docile than mains and you would most likely find it quite a bit more sluggish than your Pilot if you jump it. Also remember that most likely ( not 100% but most likely) you will have ditched your main when you use the reserve and that will lose 7-8 pounds.


(This post was edited by faulknerwn on Jan 9, 2013, 12:32 PM)


chedlin  (A 65914)

Jan 9, 2013, 12:45 PM
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Re: [faulknerwn] Newbie bought questionable gear. Where to now? [In reply to] Can't Post

I pulled out the label this morning. It says clearly Model No: "W12-3". If you look elsewhere on this forum there is a fairly full sizing chart and the W12 is one of the few with the sub numbers.

Here is a post with the sizing chart, but I also called them with that size as labeled.
http://www.dropzone.com/...post=3506002#3506002
The W12 sizes are:
W12-1 main 150 loose 170 reserve-160
W12-2 main 170 loose 190 reserve 160
W12-3 main 190 loose 210 reserve-160

I'm surprised a 210/160 combo exists.


Deyan  (D 322)

Jan 9, 2013, 12:48 PM
Post #9 of 16 (1365 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Newbie bought questionable gear. Where to now? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You might also could find a used tempo 190 that would fit in there as well.

I've never seen a Tempo 190. Was it a typo, or I've just learned something today Smile


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Jan 9, 2013, 1:02 PM
Post #10 of 16 (1340 views)
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Re: [Deyan] Newbie bought questionable gear. Where to now? [In reply to] Can't Post

That's weird. And I'm surprised they would build a rig for a 181 in a container they list for a 160.

And I am 95 percent sure I saw a Tempo 190 on a packing data card I looked at last week.


chedlin  (A 65914)

Jan 9, 2013, 1:10 PM
Post #11 of 16 (1332 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Newbie bought questionable gear. Where to now? [In reply to] Can't Post

I really meant to say Optimum 176, not 173. Looking at the various charts it doesn't appear there are any reserve canopies packing smaller than the Optimum, and even though it seems to be on the high end of reserve prices, it's not that bad if I can keep my container. I assume a container that fits me is going to be worth more to me than someone buying it because "it's close."

I would like to put in a 193, but I read the thread about tight reserves. So if I am stubborn and keep my container, am I better off to keep my Raven I (181), get a modern 176 or squeeze in the 193? If I get a modern canopy it would seem to me a good idea to demo an identical canopy so I can do a full altitude deployment and get some practice. It's the wrong time of year for that, but... Maybe I could track down a Raven I for use as a main.

When I was buying my gear I mentioned a target price and this combination was to get me there (but then I made changes and spent a lot more anyways). I shouldn't have been so cheap from the beginning.


Deyan  (D 322)

Jan 9, 2013, 1:17 PM
Post #12 of 16 (1320 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Newbie bought questionable gear. Where to now? [In reply to] Can't Post

I went through my home database. That's the trim chart for Tempo that I have here. There's no 190


(This post was edited by Deyan on Jan 9, 2013, 1:19 PM)
Attachments: Tempo.pdf (76.2 KB)


chedlin  (A 65914)

Jan 9, 2013, 1:29 PM
Post #13 of 16 (1303 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Newbie bought questionable gear. Where to now? [In reply to] Can't Post

The Tempo 190 must exist. Found reference at
http://www.jumpshack.com/...opy_volume_chart.htm I'm guessing that buying the mythical 190 might be a challenge.

Interesting lines for this thread (too bad no optimum):
Canopy Jump Shack Vol. PIA vol rec container size
RAVEN I (181) 338 361 425
PD 160R w/DACRON 364 372 450-475
PD 160R w/MICROLINE 338 -- 425
Temp 190 380 -- 425-475

Now looking at the wings sizing chart linked by faulknerwn The W13 and W14 sizes seem to put the PD160R, Tempo 170, Raven-M 181 in the same container sizes. They all also list a 176R as an option but (tight). As such one size larger on the Optimum is likely to fit.


(This post was edited by chedlin on Jan 9, 2013, 1:37 PM)


Premier 554

Jan 9, 2013, 1:50 PM
Post #14 of 16 (1279 views)
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Re: [chedlin] Newbie bought questionable gear. Where to now? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a regular PD 176 in My W-13. It's a firm fit, but it goes in fine and looks good. An Optimum 176 would easily fit in a W-13. I would think that an Optimum 193 would be on the verge of being too big to fit into the container.


fluffyduckie  (B 33293)

Jan 9, 2013, 4:54 PM
Post #15 of 16 (1183 views)
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Re: [chedlin] Newbie bought questionable gear. Where to now? [In reply to] Can't Post

Call Sunrise, they will get you the most accurate info. Speak to your former instructor or S&TA about your wing loading and the risks on that reserve. Keep in mind that you may have to use your reserve in a worst case scenario, an injury may prevent flaring, and a larger reserve may save you from further injury. Unfortunately, I agree that a larger container and reserve may be the best option. Follow up with your rigger about the best options for resale and purchase of a different rig.


potatoman  (Student)

Jan 10, 2013, 2:58 AM
Post #16 of 16 (1064 views)
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Re: [chedlin] Newbie bought questionable gear. Where to now? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It appears that the largest modern reserve I can get in my container is a PD Optimum 176.
In reply to:

check out the below under forums on not too large a reserve, and the size variations etc. Go to a very experienced rigger first before writing more cheques.

"Tight fitting reserve Pros & Cons"


(This post was edited by potatoman on Jan 10, 2013, 2:59 AM)



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