Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Which is more likely to save your life?

 

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Poll: Which is more likely to save your life?
RSL 69 / 46%
AAD 80 / 54%
149 total votes
 
airdvr  (D 10977)

Jan 7, 2013, 7:41 PM
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Which is more likely to save your life? Can't Post

Haven't known anyone an AAD would have saved. Plenty who cut away and deployed low or not at all.


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 7, 2013, 8:23 PM
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Haven't known anyone an AAD would have saved. Plenty who cut away and deployed low or not at all.

Shouldn't "AR15" and "Boobies" be options?


BKW82  (A License)

Jan 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
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Re: [kallend] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

And certainly "condoms" should be up there as well.


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Jan 7, 2013, 8:58 PM
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

I DO know several people who are alive only because of their AADs. (Head down 4-way with 4 AAD fires. As I recollect, there were 2 with two-out and 2 with only reserve out.)

If we changed the question to which is more efficient in terms of lives saved per dollar spent.... my guess is that the RSL wins by a wide margin.


piisfish

Jan 8, 2013, 12:03 AM
Post #5 of 61 (5552 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

I voted AAD.


Rover  (D 241)

Jan 8, 2013, 1:06 AM
Post #6 of 61 (5515 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

Left hand.


DvK  (B License)

Jan 8, 2013, 1:50 AM
Post #7 of 61 (5486 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

AAD, if my RSL fails, my AAD could still save the day. This wouldn't work the other way around. Also managed to successfully pull silver myself twice, where a RSL would have done nothing, so under the same circumstances, I'd be very likely to do it again.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Jan 8, 2013, 6:09 AM
Post #8 of 61 (5368 views)
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Re: [DvK] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is wrong headed thinking. There is a several hundred foot window where a Cypres (I'd have to look up Vigil) will not help. You have to fall far enough to reach the activation speed AND not get below the 'do not fire' altitude (160' without looking, may be wrong) An RSL is likely to aid in quicker deployment no matter the altitude. Of course too low is too low.

And the poll is wrong headed. RSL's are standard on most gear. Hook the damn thing up! (with some reasonable situational exceptions). An AAD requires significant additional investment, which people either choose to justify (or are required to by their DZ/country) or not.

I do know several folks that would be dead without their AAD's. At a small Cessna DZ. And neither is going to help with a cutaway that is just too low for any reserve to open.

Modern AAD's have changed skydiving. Before AAD's worn by experienced jumpers skydiving was one of the few situations where if you didn't take a POSITIVE action you would die. Driving down a highway and stop steering/braking you may not die.. etc. This 'thrill' and self reliance was part of the allure of skydiving. Now many newbies (defined as anyone starting after 1993Wink) won't get out of an airplane without an AAD and many AFF trained jumpers are scared to get out below 5000'. That's okay, but different. Skydiving is different. Better? Maybe, I've been to fewer funerals than I would have. But different.

Frankly part of me was glad to here about the 3000' wing suit rodeo with several cypres fires. It was good to know that some skydivers were still crazyCool As a novice at my DZ pre cypres days I watched an eight way bust 1000'. Everyone lived, swore they'd never to that again, would get audibles, etc. Seven of he same folks did it again two weeks later.ShockedTongue


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 8, 2013, 6:54 AM
Post #9 of 61 (5327 views)
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Re: [DvK] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

>AAD, if my RSL fails, my AAD could still save the day.

Not really. I can think of 3-4 people who cut away around 1000 feet with an AAD but no RSL; they went in.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 8, 2013, 7:01 AM
Post #10 of 61 (5315 views)
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Re: [billvon] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

BOTH.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Jan 8, 2013, 8:10 AM
Post #11 of 61 (5249 views)
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Re: [billvon] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>AAD, if my RSL fails, my AAD could still save the day.

Not really. I can think of 3-4 people who cut away around 1000 feet with an AAD but no RSL; they went in.


if you have a mal.Shocked you gotta cut it away.....and the sooner the better...Unimpressed
BUT you also Have to PULL the reserve handle...NOW!!!!! RSL or not,, imho
and aad or not...
in these 3-4 cases was the reserve handle pulled in any of them??? all of them ?? None of them???

bsbd


jmy


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 8, 2013, 9:08 AM
Post #12 of 61 (5206 views)
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Re: [jimmytavino] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

>in these 3-4 cases was the reserve handle pulled in any of them??? all of them ?? None of them???

None of them AFAIK.

I am reminded of Rick Horn's cutaway where he could not find his reserve handle. This was a guy whose career was teaching instructors how to teach students, and must have done thousands of cutaway pulls (and cutaway trainings) during his lifetime. Fortunately he had an RSL and thus lived to tell his story.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 8, 2013, 9:40 AM
Post #13 of 61 (5169 views)
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Re: [DvK] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Also managed to successfully pull silver myself twice, where a RSL would have done nothing, so under the same circumstances, I'd be very likely to do it again.

THAT is scary!


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 8, 2013, 9:41 AM
Post #14 of 61 (5167 views)
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Re: [billvon] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>AAD, if my RSL fails, my AAD could still save the day.

Not really. I can think of 3-4 people who cut away around 1000 feet with an AAD but no RSL; they went in.

The RSL didn't fail. It wasn't even present.
Crazy

...and you can't really say the AAD failed either.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 8, 2013, 9:44 AM)


airdvr  (D 10977)

Jan 8, 2013, 12:59 PM
Post #15 of 61 (5035 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I voted AAD.

you would ;)

ETA RSL's are standard equipment on most new rigs?


(This post was edited by airdvr on Jan 8, 2013, 1:14 PM)


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jan 9, 2013, 7:26 AM
Post #16 of 61 (4821 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Haven't known anyone an AAD would have saved

I used to know several people that an AAD would have saved - including a tandem pair (way back when Bill Booth said that a well trained and current TI was the best AAD for a tandem pair - yes, the TI was well trained and current). A few more that an RSL would have saved - including a camera flier.

The comparison isn't really valid, imho. RSL's and AAD's are designed to operate in completely different circumstances. An AAD will save my ass if I forget to pull (or, less likely, someone kicks me in the head) - an RSL won't do that. An RSL will save my ass if I cutaway and forget to (or can't) deploy the reserve in time - an AAD won't do that (assuming of course, that I'm not stupid high when I cutaway).


airdvr  (D 10977)

Jan 9, 2013, 7:36 AM
Post #17 of 61 (4817 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

The question isn't which one would save you. Which situation are you more likely to find yourself in? Solid numbers are difficult to find to make the point. Clearly so far more people think they would go in without pulling anything vs. those who think they'll have a mal they need to cut away.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 9, 2013, 8:26 AM
Post #18 of 61 (4786 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

It shouldn't be too difficult to find the number of no-pull fatalities and compare to known AAD saves.
Finding the number of cutaway pulls with RSL would be difficult to do.


DvK  (B License)

Jan 9, 2013, 8:56 AM
Post #19 of 61 (4763 views)
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Re: [billvon] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>AAD, if my RSL fails, my AAD could still save the day.

Not really. I can think of 3-4 people who cut away around 1000 feet with an AAD but no RSL; they went in.


Could save the day. If I chop my main and my RSL doesn't work (for whatever reason, lets say it disconnected) and I don't pull my reserve handle, for whatever reason... Then there's a good chance my AAD will cut the reserve loop when the right parameters are met.

If my AAD fails, my RLS could save the day, but only in case of a successful chop (risers+RSL leave). If there's no main out, then the RSL won't do a thing.
I didn't mean to say that my AAD will 100% do the trick, but there's a significant chance that it will ;)


In reply to:
In reply to:
Also managed to successfully pull silver myself twice, where a RSL would have done nothing, so under the same circumstances, I'd be very likely to do it again.

THAT is scary!

What do you find scare? The fact that my RSL wouldn't have made a difference, or my way of thinking?

In reply to:
This is wrong headed thinking. There is a several hundred foot window where a Cypres (I'd have to look up Vigil) will not help. You have to fall far enough to reach the activation speed AND not get below the 'do not fire' altitude (160' without looking, may be wrong) An RSL is likely to aid in quicker deployment no matter the altitude. Of course too low is too low.

Cypres 2 expert will fire at 750' if the vertical speed is 35> m/s. If chopped below this altitude, the cypres will fire when the chop is detected. The unit will disengage from 140 ft and below, where cutting the reserve loop will definitely not make a difference anymore.


(This post was edited by DvK on Jan 9, 2013, 9:03 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 9, 2013, 9:15 AM
Post #20 of 61 (4744 views)
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Re: [DvK] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Could save the day. If I chop my main and my RSL doesn't work (for whatever
>reason, lets say it disconnected) and I don't pull my reserve handle, for whatever
>reason... Then there's a good chance my AAD will cut the reserve loop when the right
>parameters are met.

Agreed. If, for example, you cut away at 2500 feet, then your AAD stands an excellent chance of saving you.

Unfortunately, low cutaways are generally the times that an RSL will save you - and under those conditions an AAD won't.

>If my AAD fails, my RLS could save the day

That's an odd statement since they are two very different things. It's like saying "if my main fails my flotation gear could save the day." Literally true in some situations but they're really not replacements for each other.

>Cypres 2 expert will fire at 750' if the vertical speed is 35> m/s. If chopped below
>this altitude, the cypres will fire when the chop is detected.

It definitely will not; it has to reach firing speed first. (And that's MEASURED speed not ACTUAL speed.)


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Jan 9, 2013, 9:18 AM
Post #21 of 61 (4741 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

AAD.
I haven't got an RSL.Angelic


dthames  (B 37674)

Jan 9, 2013, 6:59 PM
Post #22 of 61 (4619 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

Some time ago I saw a video where a guy cut away and his reserve container failed to open even after the pin was pulled. When the AAD fired, the container opened. After landing the fellow was on his knees, face the the ground, panting, trying to collect himself.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 9, 2013, 7:13 PM
Post #23 of 61 (4612 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

AAD.

the RSL takes an action to work, the AAD does not.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jan 9, 2013, 7:24 PM
Post #24 of 61 (4605 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Also managed to successfully pull silver myself twice, where a RSL would have done nothing, so under the same circumstances, I'd be very likely to do it again.

THAT is scary!
Sounds like he had to pull his reserve a couple of times for total malfunctions. If that's correct, that's not very scary.

Or am I missing something.


DvK  (B License)

Jan 10, 2013, 2:32 AM
Post #25 of 61 (4557 views)
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Re: [billvon] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Could save the day. If I chop my main and my RSL doesn't work (for whatever
>reason, lets say it disconnected) and I don't pull my reserve handle, for whatever
>reason... Then there's a good chance my AAD will cut the reserve loop when the right
>parameters are met.

Agreed. If, for example, you cut away at 2500 feet, then your AAD stands an excellent chance of saving you.

Unfortunately, low cutaways are generally the times that an RSL will save you - and under those conditions an AAD won't.

>If my AAD fails, my RLS could save the day

That's an odd statement since they are two very different things. It's like saying "if my main fails my flotation gear could save the day." Literally true in some situations but they're really not replacements for each other.

>Cypres 2 expert will fire at 750' if the vertical speed is 35> m/s. If chopped below
>this altitude, the cypres will fire when the chop is detected.

It definitely will not; it has to reach firing speed first. (And that's MEASURED speed not ACTUAL speed.)[/reply]

That's what I meant, should pick my words carefully, not so good at that, especially in my non-native language and especially over the internet : )

I also agree that you can't really compare or choose between the 2 of these (RSL vs AAD) , it both being completely different things with different tasks, kinda makes this an invalid discussion to begin with


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