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Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll

 

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Ron

Oct 3, 2012, 9:58 AM
Post #26 of 66 (3535 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What then would you suggest?

That the USPA does what it is supposed to do and try to keep the govt off of our backs.... Just like the AOPA. As you put it "staving off GOVERNMENT regulation, their administration and promulgation of most of the student program, and FAA relations, etc". Instead of trying to run programs like the "USPA Championship Demo Team" the "Group Member Program" etc.

Simply put this whole issue could be fixed with a regulation or BSR about how to exit a side door plane. It does not need an entire new training program for a handful of jumpers.

Even easier, it could be fixed by someone like DSE creating a best practice and sending it to every DZO that wants it. Then the DZO can decide how he wants to run HIS DZ, and he then has to deal with HIS insurance to cover HIS planes.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Oct 10, 2012, 9:48 AM
Post #27 of 66 (3431 views)
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Re: [Ron] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

I just read this entire thread and it's tremendous. Excellent point and counter-point dialogue. Most of you know me. Most of you know that I've been an instructor since I was 18 years old (I'm 49 now). I hold every wingsuit manufacturer "instructor"and "examiner" rating and I've trained more people to do this safely than I could possibly count. Personally, I don't care if USPA adopts this program. It's not going to change the way I conduct training. What I DO hope, though, is that dropzone S&TA's (like me) get off their asses and DO THEIR JOBS. It's simply not OK to let some unknown kid show up at your DZ in an Apache XRW and let him jump out of your plane without proof of training and currency. This never, ever happens at Raeford Parachute Center and it should not happen at your DZ. Formalized wingsuit instruction has been around since 1999. There are PLENTY of opportunities at boogies and PLENTY of dropzones with formal wingsuit schools where you can get proper training. There is no excuse for cutting corners. Ultimately, if the proposal passes I am to be one of the instructor examiners since I have been doing it on the "private" side since the inception of such programs. Again, though, I don't care one way or another. It's not going to affect the way I conduct my business. I've never been a "champion" skydiver, but I have ALWAYS been an instructor; that's what drives me.

Thanks for your time,

Chuck Blue, D-12501


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Oct 10, 2012, 10:45 AM
Post #28 of 66 (3421 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

Well said. Regardless of how this turns out it will be down to the local level to monitor and enforce, something they could be doing now.


bigbearfng  (D 29442)

Oct 21, 2012, 8:10 AM
Post #29 of 66 (3261 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I commend you for taking the time to screen unknown WS jumpers at your DZ and hope you include unknown jumpers on pocket rocket canopies.

Just curious-if the powers that be had decided you wouldn't qualify as one of the I/E's under this proposal what would your take on it then be?
Would you then go take a course from one the sanctioned people? Or????


Shredex

Jan 4, 2013, 6:41 PM
Post #30 of 66 (3086 views)
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Re: Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

It won.

2,686 voted Yes
2,053 voted No


Source


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jan 5, 2013, 7:36 AM
Post #31 of 66 (3034 views)
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Re: [bigbearfng] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I commend you for taking the time to screen unknown WS jumpers at your DZ and hope you include unknown jumpers on pocket rocket canopies.

Just curious-if the powers that be had decided you wouldn't qualify as one of the I/E's under this proposal what would your take on it then be?
Would you then go take a course from one the sanctioned people? Or????

Skydive Instruction is what I do for a living. I've been an instructor since I was 19 years old (I'm 49 now). I've been instructing wingsuiting since 2000. If this does get approved and for some odd reason I were not made a part of the initial group of examiners then I would pay for the examiner course so that I could still "legally" (assuming USPA control) continue to do what I've been doing for 13 years. It's the right thing to do if the forces that be mandate it. I'm just going to write the cost off on my taxes anyway. Then again, USPA has not mandated anything at this point.

Chuck Blue, D-12501
AFF/SL/TM-I, PRO, S&TA, PFC/E
DragonFly Wingsuit School


bigbearfng  (D 29442)

Jan 5, 2013, 8:40 AM
Post #32 of 66 (3010 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

And I hope USPA doesn't mandate any of this crap......Tongue


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 5, 2013, 10:31 AM
Post #33 of 66 (2978 views)
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Re: [Shredex] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

 Well, you could say that 44.6% of voting members voted "YES", and 55.4% didn't.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 5, 2013, 11:12 AM
Post #34 of 66 (2962 views)
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Re: [kallend] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

In a similar context, 75% of the voters didn't vote "no." Tongue


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jan 6, 2013, 5:42 PM
Post #35 of 66 (2823 views)
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Re: [Shredex] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It won.

2,686 voted Yes
2,053 voted No


Source

It most emphatically did NOT win; the 2,686 "yes" votes were soundly beaten by the combined 3,342 "no" and "no opinion" votes -- the latter 1,289 of which carry as much weight in this ridiculously designed and fundamentally flawed "poll" as a "yes" or "no" vote.

Ergo, if the new BOD does not summarily poopcan this methodologically illegitimate "poll," it must absolutely weight the "no opinion" vote equally with the "no" votes and the "yes" votes -- which means:

THE MEMBERSHIP DOES NOT SUPPORT ACTION TO IMPOSE THIS ILL-ADVISED, POORLY THOUGHT-OUT INITIATIVE ON THE SPORT. PERIOD.

Seriously, beyond being methodologically illegitimate and amateurishly executed, the results of this "poll" -- which would be invalid even if the "yes" vote actually won -- show clearly and emphatically that the USPA membership either actively opposes or is indifferent to the creation of a mindless rating system that increases liability across the whole sport, reduces the fun factor, and does absolutely nothing to address the principal issues facing wingsuit skydiving in the United States.

Hopefully, the new BOD will exercise more common sense in aborting this defective baby than did its predecessor.

44
Cool


lifewithoutanet

Jan 6, 2013, 8:49 PM
Post #36 of 66 (2788 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

+1


SStewart  (D 10405)

Jan 6, 2013, 10:53 PM
Post #37 of 66 (2771 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

+ 2

Not to mention this stupidity is not enforceable. Most DZ's will ignore it and then what?

Group member drop zones will lose their status? So what?
That may be all it takes to drop out of the GMDZ program.

If an experienced mentor takes somebody on a jump without the new rating what then, will they be kicked out of USPA? Will the indivduals membership and ratings be revoked?

I mean what exactly are you going to do to us?

Most skydivers don't give a shit about USPA to begin with, this type of thing only drives them farther away.

USPA has one main function only and that is to defend skydivers from restrictions and protect our rights to skydive. Everything else is secondary. That is why the PCA and the later USPA were established.

My instructor told me something 32 years ago and it is still true today "Skydiving did not begin the day you started jumping"

I think some folks have lost sight of that.


tdog  (D 28800)

Jan 7, 2013, 6:30 AM
Post #38 of 66 (2707 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

+3 (in support of those who did not vote being significant)

Maybe instead of making a complex instructor program, and having pretty pictures on the front of the USPA Magazine - they should make a cover story that is more newsworthy/educational instead of travel blog about the last boogie, and have a real factual article about wingsuit safety and known risks.

I would bet a jumpticket that if the poll had a 3rd option, "should the USPA focus 2013 on wingsuit education and wingsuit safety, include new educational content in the SIM regarding wingsuiting including recommended wingsuiting instruction techniques, but not implement a formal instructor program" - that item would have "won" hands down...


(This post was edited by tdog on Jan 7, 2013, 6:32 AM)


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jan 7, 2013, 9:06 AM
Post #39 of 66 (2644 views)
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Re: [tdog] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe instead of making a complex instructor program, and having pretty pictures on the front of the USPA Magazine - they should make a cover story that is more newsworthy/educational instead of .....

It's a membership magazine! I'm guessing if YOU or any member write that article and submit it, they would happily print it. Cool

(the following not aimed specifically at tdog)
Once again, too many people wanting everything done for them. At some point you have to take the bull by the horns! But, If you choose not to be proactive, someone else will. At which point your bitching about it has no value other than to affect minor changes in the policies they implement.

Lesson..... Stop bitching and be Proactive!! Wink


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 7, 2013, 9:08 AM
Post #40 of 66 (2639 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

>It most emphatically did NOT win

It won. Even though lots of people didn't care, the people who cared overwhelmingly supported it.

Which is fine; I'd rather that people who have no opinion or who don't care or who don't know what the question is about abstain from voting.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jan 7, 2013, 10:34 AM
Post #41 of 66 (2604 views)
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Re: [billvon] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>It most emphatically did NOT win

It won. Even though lots of people didn't care, the people who cared overwhelmingly supported it.

Which is fine; I'd rather that people who have no opinion or who don't care or who don't know what the question is about abstain from voting.

^ So far, that is the only honest perspective on the poll results.

The result is "Yes", if one whats to say the "No Opinion" votes need to be "No" votes, the same argument can be used as "Yes" votes. Reality is the only ones that count are "Yes" or "No", "Yes" won.

Apathy, is a vote for the one vote majority.

Matt


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 7, 2013, 11:05 AM
Post #42 of 66 (2581 views)
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Re: [tdog] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

>and have a real factual article about wingsuit safety and known risks.

?? There have been several of these.

>I would bet a jumpticket that if the poll had a 3rd option, "should the USPA focus
>2013 on wingsuit education and wingsuit safety, include new educational content in the
>SIM regarding wingsuiting including recommended wingsuiting instruction techniques,
>but not implement a formal instructor program" - that item would have "won" hands
>down...

That sounds good too, and I'd support your efforts to do that. (Keep in mind, though, that there IS new educational content in the SIM regarding wingsuiting including recommended wingsuiting instruction techniques - including a full first flight course syllabus.)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 7, 2013, 11:09 AM
Post #43 of 66 (2574 views)
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Re: [SStewart] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

>USPA has one main function only and that is to defend skydivers from restrictions
>and protect our rights to skydive.

Here is USPA's stated purpose:

======
The purpose of USPA is three-fold: to promote safe skydiving through training, licensing, and instructor qualification programs; to ensure skydivings rightful place on airports and in the airspace system, and to promote competition and record-setting programs.
======

#1 is promoting safe skydiving through training, licensing and instructor qualification programs.


>My instructor told me something 32 years ago and it is still true today "Skydiving
>did not begin the day you started jumping" I think some folks have lost sight of that.

Agreed. The sport is changing and growing all the time, and USPA is growing along with it. Some people may not like the direction the sport is going in (higher performance parachutes, wingsuits etc) and they are always free to choose another sport.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jan 7, 2013, 11:19 AM
Post #44 of 66 (2563 views)
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Re: [billvon] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>It most emphatically did NOT win

It won. Even though lots of people didn't care, the people who cared overwhelmingly supported it.

Which is fine; I'd rather that people who have no opinion or who don't care or who don't know what the question is about abstain from voting.
This is a POLL. Not even a good poll.
Nothing won or lost, but I wouldn't try to say that a measure that was "approved" by 8% of USPA's total membership is a sign of membership approval.
I have no problem with USPA adopting a uniform training program in the same fashion as the recomended training for rw or crw. I have no probelm with the manufacturers adopting their own training program.
To implement a requirement for training and a new I and I-E structure I cannot support.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 7, 2013, 11:41 AM
Post #45 of 66 (2552 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

>This is a POLL. . . . .Nothing won or lost, but I wouldn't try to say that a measure that was "approved"

True, it would be more accurate to say that the poll indicated support for it.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jan 7, 2013, 12:34 PM
Post #46 of 66 (2529 views)
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Re: [billvon] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>This is a POLL. . . . .Nothing won or lost, but I wouldn't try to say that a measure that was "approved"

True, it would be more accurate to say that the poll indicated support for it.

^^^^ This!!! Keep in mind, it's a work in progress and input from membership is important, regardless which side of this issue you're camping in. Cool


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Jan 7, 2013, 3:27 PM
Post #47 of 66 (2478 views)
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Re: [billvon] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

True, it would be more accurate to say that the poll indicated support for it.

It would be even more accurate to say that only 45% of those responding to the poll indicated support for it.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 7, 2013, 3:33 PM
Post #48 of 66 (2470 views)
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Re: [NSEMN8R] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

>It would be even more accurate to say that only 45% of those responding to the
>poll indicated support for it.

And just as accurate to say that of the ~32,000 USPA members eligible to vote, only 6.4% indicated that they had a problem with such a program.

But again those are numbers games. The poll indicated support for the proposal.




NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Jan 7, 2013, 4:07 PM
Post #50 of 66 (2445 views)
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Re: [billvon] Standardized Wingsuit Instruction Opinion Poll [In reply to] Can't Post

Without any numbers games, the poll did indicate 45% support for it.

I guess the big question is "will they push it through with less than 50% of the membership asking for it?"


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