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Emergency Procedures - Side by Side

 

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BigMikeH77  (B 39490)

Jan 3, 2013, 3:09 PM
Post #1 of 29 (3447 views)
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Emergency Procedures - Side by Side Can't Post

Was just reviewing the SIM and am a little confused by this recommendation for remedying a side-by-side two canopies out situation;

Quote:
Side-by-side procedure 1:

If both canopies are flying without interference or possibility of entanglement and altitude permits:

(1) Disconnect the RSL.

(2) Cut away the main and steer the reserve to a normal landing.

My question is, how do you disconnect the RSL? Yes, I will of course talk to my instructors about this and other questions when I head to the DZ next weekend... I am just looking for insight. :-)


(This post was edited by BigMikeH77 on Jan 3, 2013, 3:23 PM)


IanHarrop  (C 1152)

Jan 3, 2013, 3:35 PM
Post #2 of 29 (3349 views)
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Re: [BigMikeH77] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

see the buckle in this video... disconnect it by pulling on the tab

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZbHg1QZZPs


Probably good for you to read http://theblueskyranch.com/sta/tb21.htm

this too http://www.dropzone.com/..._5_RSL_myths_18.html


(This post was edited by IanHarrop on Jan 3, 2013, 3:38 PM)


BigMikeH77  (B 39490)

Jan 3, 2013, 11:22 PM
Post #3 of 29 (3154 views)
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Re: [IanHarrop] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

Perfect... Thanks so much for the links.


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Jan 4, 2013, 5:41 AM
Post #4 of 29 (3034 views)
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Re: [BigMikeH77] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

Potentially your RSL on your student gear may have that quick release replaced with a maillon rapeade link. [edit - which unless you've got a wrench in your jumpsuit pocket you won't be able to undo]

Talk to your instructors about what drills they want you to perform and when you qualify talk to people about how, if at all, your drills may change as your gear changes (if it does).


(This post was edited by mr2mk1g on Jan 4, 2013, 9:00 AM)


t1mb0b  (B 6603)

Jan 4, 2013, 8:42 AM
Post #5 of 29 (2955 views)
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Re: [IanHarrop] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
see the buckle in this video... disconnect it by pulling on the tab

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZbHg1QZZPs


Probably good for you to read http://theblueskyranch.com/sta/tb21.htm

this too http://www.dropzone.com/..._5_RSL_myths_18.html

Great info, thanks Ian!


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jan 4, 2013, 9:31 AM
Post #6 of 29 (2900 views)
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Re: [BigMikeH77] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

There are actually two types of side-by-sides and each has very-different EP's:

FIRST you must determine whether or not if the two canopies are entangled or not and disconnect your RSL

If your canopies are NOT entangled, then you can steer the left-hand canopy away from the right hand canopy by the left-rear riser with your left hand and cutaway with your right hand. If you cannot determine whether or not your canopies are entangled, then you may choose to land both canopies in that configuration trying at all costs to keep both canopies from downplaning.

If your canopies ARE entangled you CAN'T cutaway and must instead do everything in your power to keep both canopies above your head and prevent them from turning into a downplane. Cutting away an entangled main is not an option as it will almost certainly collapse your reserve canopy and you will then have two balls of crap over your head.

An example of how you might have two out and have them entangled is deploying your main while tumbling and having your AAD fire your reserve PC through one side of your risers or through the lines as the canopy was deploying.

Chuck


ActionAir  (D License)

Jan 4, 2013, 9:36 AM
Post #7 of 29 (2893 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

Pull your reserve ripcord. RSL is now disconnected.


monkycndo  (D License)

Jan 4, 2013, 9:53 AM
Post #8 of 29 (2880 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

Chuck, there was a seminar at PIA 2011 that discussed two outs. It had a great and simple way to remember what you described. In times of stress, I like to follow KISS.

If you have determined canopies are not entangled and after RSL is disconnected:

LEFT on LEFT on LEFT

Left hand on left rear riser of left canopy.

Right hand on cut away handle.

Pull on rear riser until canopies are completely separated. As you cut away the main, release rear riser with left hand. If the left canopy is the main, that riser will soon be pulled away from you.

I learned a lot at that presentation that I hopefully will not need to put into practice.

And as always, best to think about it on the ground before having to practice it in the air.


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 4, 2013, 10:38 AM
Post #9 of 29 (2858 views)
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Re: [monkycndo] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

LEFT on LEFT on LEFT

Gold.

Thank you.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 4, 2013, 12:28 PM
Post #10 of 29 (2799 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Potentially your RSL on your student gear may have that quick release replaced with a maillon rapeade link. [edit - which unless you've got a wrench in your jumpsuit pocket you won't be able to undo]

Really????
That is an accident looking for a place to happen.
I would avoid ANY rig set up like that.
For what logical purpose is that done?
Where is a DZ that does that?

In reply to:
Talk to your instructors about what drills they want you to perform and when you qualify talk to people about how, if at all, your drills may change as your gear changes (if it does).

Ordinarily, I would agree with this somewhat.

Only somewhat because you said, "...when you qualify talk to people about how". Why would you send a student off to talk to those otherm people about "how" to do something?

Additionally, in light of your RSL mention above, it highlights the fact that there are many instructors out there proposing and teaching the wrong things..some of it total bullshit.

I would suggest to the student to read the SIM first...it's a U.S. thing, and then talk to the I's with your questions. At least the student gets an eyeful of what is recommended as best practices from the USPA before the instructor twists his head around telling him to do something stupid....such as tie down the RSL with a hard link.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 4, 2013, 12:34 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 4, 2013, 12:32 PM
Post #11 of 29 (2794 views)
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Re: [ActionAir] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Pull your reserve ripcord. RSL is now disconnected.

Think about that and re-do.


Hint: Which would come first, disconnect RSL or pull reserve handle?


sundevil777  (D License)

Jan 4, 2013, 2:22 PM
Post #12 of 29 (2723 views)
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Re: [ActionAir] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Pull your reserve ripcord. RSL is now disconnected.

It will only be disconnected from the ripcord cable, assuming something else allowed the reserve to open, like an AAD. There will still be some force needed to get the RSL lanyard pulled free from the channels routing it on the rig. If cutting away from a two-out, I'd rather not have a shackle on the riser to snag the reserve, so releasing the RSL shackle would be better.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 4, 2013, 7:40 PM
Post #13 of 29 (2662 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

Awww, man...I was hoping ActionAir would come up with that...plus he's only talking about it being disconnected on the useless end.
Tongue


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 4, 2013, 7:41 PM)


milehigheric  (C License)

Jan 5, 2013, 12:23 AM
Post #14 of 29 (2611 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

FYI, my student gear had non removable RSL. Same goes for other student gear I have seen at different drop zones. I have no idea what the reasoning is behind it however. Sounds a bit crappy really, but I only learnt that RSL's can be disconnected after buying my own gear and sitting down with someone to explain it to me - I would guess alot of students would be the same.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jan 5, 2013, 5:12 AM
Post #15 of 29 (2564 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

I've also seen non-removable RSLs on student gear. But it tended to be on older gear -- i.e., less likely to be seen on modern common brands. The idea was to avoid accidental disconnects, while at the same time one wasn't going to ask a static line student to start looking for a little tab in the rare event of a two out. I'm not advocating that method, just describing why it was done.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jan 5, 2013, 7:27 AM
Post #16 of 29 (2543 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

LEFT on LEFT on LEFT

Gold.

Thank you.

+1! I've never heard it stated that way and it DOES describe what I said to the T.


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Jan 7, 2013, 3:23 AM
Post #17 of 29 (2362 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not advocating the use of a rapeade link, just observing that there are rigs out there and DZ's out there that have them in place of a shackle for students. There's no use us lot giving the OP advice about releasing the RSL if he's using such a rig. He needs to speak with his instructors if that is the case. If online advice is followed for a gear configuration not suited to that advice, unpleasant things can happen.

His instructors must have risk assessed their choice to use such a link and have decided on training to suit - if not, perhaps he needs to consider where he's jumping. Obviously you take the view that using a link in place of a shackle is already cause for that. I'm not taking issue with that.

I'm not sending a student off - I said once qualified. Instructors are a great source of safety info for all but they are far from the only source of information. Training wheels have to come off at some point so that people can start learning to cut the wheat from the chafe. Student's must do as directed by their instructors. Qualified jumpers can and indeed must learn to make their own choices about their gear and emergency procedures based on what and how they are jumping.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 7, 2013, 1:27 PM
Post #18 of 29 (2238 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There's no use us lot giving the OP advice about releasing the RSL if he's using such a rig. He needs to speak with his instructors if that is the case. If online advice is followed for a gear configuration not suited to that advice, unpleasant things can happen.
How right you are.
Are arguing against the OP have the knowledge of the RSL and it;s function?
Regardless, of the setup, he needs to know about RSL...he will be having one in the very near future.

What concerns me is that students come here asking questions about things they should have already been taught. I'll not mention the apparent "experienced, but young" jumpers asking the same types of questions.

I'm not one to hold back on info for the students.


NvyZero  (D License)

Jan 7, 2013, 6:12 PM
Post #19 of 29 (2197 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

What concerns me is that students come here asking questions about things they should have already been taught. I'll not mention the apparent "experienced, but young" jumpers asking the same types of questions.

I'm not one to hold back on info for the students.

Students are usually given the info they need for the jump. Also a lot of information is covered in the fjc and most of it is totally forgotten due to information overload! Also I think no one should ever give advice on these forums, were all assholes Tongue! Im a YDJ Laugh but i have had access to amazing instructors, and people in general and for some reason im still alive! If your gonna take advice always pull high!


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Jan 7, 2013, 10:34 PM
Post #20 of 29 (2153 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Are arguing against the OP have the knowledge of the RSL and it;s function?

I want aware I argued anything. I just gave the OP additional info no one else had that there may be a link in place of a shackle.


BigMikeH77  (B 39490)

Jan 8, 2013, 8:45 AM
Post #21 of 29 (2086 views)
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Re: [BigMikeH77] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

You know, I didn't post this to start an argument among the more experienced jumpers. I just had a simple question about the SIM. I even edited my original post with "Of course I'll be asking my instructor..." because I left that out at first - It SHOULD go without saying.

I'm not here on the forum to learn how to skydive. I have a DZ and instructors for that. But there is a lot of valuable experience that can be shared from folks who have hundreds/thousands of jumps.

REMEMBER, I'm new. I have a lot of questions and since I also have a job and kids, I'm not always available to go to the DZ whenever I want. MAYBE twice a month.. So I think these forums are a great place to ask questions.

I respectfully request the arguing and nit picking over symantics to stop. You are doing me and the other lesser experienced jumpers and students a disservice. Now, if you have an opinion on the SIM or procedures for a side-by-side I'd love to hear them... And there have already been a couple of those posted. So thank you for those.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 8, 2013, 9:16 AM
Post #22 of 29 (2068 views)
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Re: [BigMikeH77] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

Does your gear have the RSL or the hard link?

As far as the side discussion, unless you knew all that already, didn't you learn anything from it? If you did, then all is well and good, eh?

Most often we "nitpick" for clarity...which is good thing for everyone. The funny part is that, most often, it turns out that the nitpickers are talking about the same thing.
LaughLaugh

The two-out procedures in the SIM are golden. Those procedures were tested by the Golden Knights years ago and were deemed "best practices" and adopted by USPA.

I'm always wary of "new" things being dreamed up and suggested for use. It's preferable to test those "new" things prior to use. On top of that, quite often those "new" things have already been thought of, and tested, and found to be wanting. IMHO, tying off the RSL with a hard link is one of those dreamed up things.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 8, 2013, 9:19 AM)


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 8, 2013, 2:48 PM
Post #23 of 29 (2014 views)
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Re: [milehigheric] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
FYI, my student gear had non removable RSL. Same goes for other student gear I have seen at different drop zones. I have no idea what the reasoning is behind it however. Sounds a bit crappy really, but I only learnt that RSL's can be disconnected after buying my own gear and sitting down with someone to explain it to me - I would guess alot of students would be the same.

It does sound a bit crappy,...

WE still want, in the event of an accidential pin bump, in the plane, to be able to remove the main to a safe condition, seat belt in the student, and ride the plane down with them.
C


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 8, 2013, 6:26 PM
Post #24 of 29 (1954 views)
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Re: [milehigheric] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
....but I only learnt that RSL's can be disconnected after buying my own gear and sitting down with someone to explain it to me - I would guess alot of students would be the same.

*sigh*
...and I had someone question why my faith was so lacking in AFFIs in general.

I am VERY glad that you or someone caught that hole in your training before something weird happened.


kuai43  (C License)

Jan 8, 2013, 9:55 PM
Post #25 of 29 (1916 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Emergency Procedures - Side by Side [In reply to] Can't Post

 
In reply to:
Really????
That is an accident looking for a place to happen.
I would avoid ANY rig set up like that.
For what logical purpose is that done?
Where is a DZ that does that?

I would suggest to the student to read the SIM first...it's a U.S. thing, and then talk to the I's with your questions. At least the student gets an eyeful of what is recommended as best practices from the USPA before the instructor twists his head around telling him to do something stupid....such as tie down the RSL with a hard link.

Completely in agreement. Unless it's already been mentioned, EP's for water landings, roof landings, and in some cases, tree landings might require chopping the main without having to worry about the reserve being automatically deployed. No way would I ever jump with an un-detachable RSL.


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