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How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators"

 

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peek  (D 8884)

Dec 31, 2012, 6:38 PM
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How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" Can't Post

The referenced thread included a video of a jumper landing at a demo, and overshooting enough to get way too close to the spectators. I have seen people getting way to close to obstacles too, when they have misjudged how far their canopy will fly.

Please allow me to suggest a solution. It is not a one-size-fits-all solution, and it requires some knowledge, and perhaps even some practice, but it can work very well.

If you have flared and your canopy is "planing out", it might fly a long way before slowing down to the point where you are ready to put your feet down. However, any part of your body that is touching the ground will add a lot of drag and slow you down quickly.

You may need only to let up on your toggles a small amount and allow your canopy to sink closer to the ground where you can slide in the landing.

Granted, the normal caveats apply. You must evaluate (or have knowledge of) the landing area, and protect your tailbone. You might need to forgo this method if the landing area is rough. There are risks to anything out of the ordinary.

It will also require considerable concentration, and confidence that this technique will work, all the while getting closer to your obstacle or spectators.

One must also be willing to accept the wear on their legstraps, and getting their gear dirty too. However, I think this is a small price to pay for not flying so close to spectators (or an obstacle).

Think about it. Would you rather get your gear dirty, or hit that chain-link fence? (By the way, a PLF will add enough drag to slow you down too.)


(This post was edited by peek on Dec 31, 2012, 6:55 PM)


craigbey  (C 31991)

Jan 1, 2013, 9:02 AM
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Re: [peek] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You must evaluate (or have knowledge of) the landing area, and protect your tailbone. You might need to forgo this method if the landing area is rough.
...
It will also require considerable concentration, and confidence that this technique will work, all the while getting closer to your obstacle or spectators.

One must also be willing to accept the wear on their legstraps, and getting their gear dirty too.

You would also need to be much farther ahead of the situation than the demo jumper referenced in the recent incidents thread. That jumper was merely reacting as the events unfolded and was probably not prepared to utilize any technique other than thump and slide.

If someone has the foresight to see an object in their path and put down some extra drag in a controlled effort to stop early, they should have the wisdom to not get into such a situation in the first place... especially in a demo.


peek  (D 8884)

Jan 1, 2013, 9:16 AM
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Re: [craigbey] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You would also need to be much farther ahead of the situation than the demo jumper referenced in the recent incidents thread.

Agreed, he would have needed to sit down and create drag as soon as he had any idea that things were not going well. And that is about the time he started doing things with his toggles that did not help.

It is just one more technique that I think people could possibly use sometimes if they at least included it their bag of tricks, and if they admitted to themselves that they needed to use it.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Jan 1, 2013, 12:02 PM
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Re: [peek] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know what was to the left of the screen where he was heading but he made the classic rookie/student mistake. He started trying to balance with his hands and lifted both of them. Then he lifted the right one higher and turned left into the crowd. See photo below taken from other thread and note the relative length of steering line below the ring. If he was clear ahead on his original flight path all he had to do was keep his damn hands down.Mad Or at least even.

And if landing too hard to take it on his spine/butt in a slide that's what PLF's are for. With lots of round jumps it's automatic to drop into some sort of PLF that may look more like a roll but saves my butt (literally and figuratively),

This guy didn't need to get to the ground sooner. Just needed to keep flying straight! I don't know how many newbies I've had to convince they had done just this.
Attachments: Gripper%20Demo.jpg (37.3 KB)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jan 1, 2013, 1:51 PM
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Re: [craigbey] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

...
You would also need to be much farther ahead of the situation than the demo jumper referenced in the recent incidents thread. That jumper was merely reacting as the events unfolded and was probably not prepared to utilize any technique other than thump and slide.

If someone has the foresight to see an object in their path and put down some extra drag in a controlled effort to stop early, they should have the wisdom to not get into such a situation in the first place... especially in a demo.
......................................................................................

Great in theory ... however, until you have dozens of jumps - into the same stadium - in a variety of wind conditions, etc. it is difficult to predict where the "wind shadows" are.

Yes, experience and foresight can help.

Judging by that last photo, (gripper) the jumper lacked basic canopy-flying skills needed to keep his butt intact in a solo, open-field, dropzone landing. He still needs plenty of coaching and a few hundred more open-field jumps before he will have the skills for confined-area landings.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jan 1, 2013, 2:26 PM
Post #6 of 47 (4370 views)
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Re: [peek] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

If a jumper needs "techniques" for avoiding spectators, he/she doesn't need to be on that jump.


Pulse  (D 16387)

Jan 2, 2013, 10:53 PM
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Re: [peek] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow...thank you! I'm not crazy.

I've taught this for years. (Using ALL of the drag available to you.) I've never heard anyone else bring this up. The idea that if you have to use this technique you're too far behind already doesn't really hold. It's like canopy piloting skills in general. If you have the judgement, you shouldn't have to pull out extraordinary skills. But if you have a lapse in judgement or something comes up, you've got it in your back pocket.


Quagmirian  (A 110392)

Jan 3, 2013, 1:41 AM
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Re: [Pulse] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

'We shouldn't practice downwind landings because if you need to do one you've done something wrong.'


holie  (A License)

Jan 3, 2013, 2:43 AM
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Re: [Quagmirian] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
'We shouldn't practice downwind landings because if you need to do one you've done something wrong.'

Therefor you should stay on the ground!

If you're not prepared for every possible incidents you 're not ready to go ;-) But all the naysayers or armchair quarterback try to keep realistic while searching for incidents

Stay save! Be prepared!


potatoman  (Student)

Jan 3, 2013, 3:00 AM
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Re: [peek] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

Using your body against the ground is an idea. Yet, from canopy control courses...Slow the canopy down, and do a flat turn. I only saw the pic, but the jumper, could have gone 1/4 brake, and turned 90+ degrees to the left, probably over the heads of some, and probably needed a good plf. But, that is from a pic, so can't really say.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Jan 3, 2013, 4:57 AM
Post #11 of 47 (3995 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
'We shouldn't practice downwind landings because if you need to do one you've done something wrong.'

Short sighted, and inaccurate. There are a legitimate reasons you could have to land downwind.

Off field landing
FMD Pattern set the wrong way
Variable wind conditions, or winds switched after takeoff (on a preset landing direction DZ for example).
etc

Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Jan 3, 2013, 4:58 AM)


peek  (D 8884)

Jan 3, 2013, 4:59 AM
Post #12 of 47 (3988 views)
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Re: [Pulse] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've taught this for years. (Using ALL of the drag available to you.) I've never heard anyone else bring this up.

That's the reason I started the thread, to introduce the idea to others that may not have thought of it.

I can't remember when I first learned this technique. It was not taught to me. Maybe I saw someone slide in long ago and it lodged in the back of my mind. Maybe it was when I was sliding in a tandem landing.

This is not an easy thing to teach because it is difficult to convince anyone to practice, like a PLF on their new gear. It must simply be mentioned and hope it is remembered if needed.

I must admit that I think through many situations, both in skydiving and in other things, where I plan what I would do in an emergency.

Here is an example, a practice exercise for everyone: You are driving down a neighborhood street lined with cars, a child steps out between cars, and your brakes have failed. What do you do (that you have never before practiced)?


Abedy  (D 10153)

Jan 3, 2013, 7:58 AM
Post #13 of 47 (3948 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

And be it only to check whether you're prepared to downsize. Just search for "downsize criteria"
Another thought: Never heard that you rather land downwind than to hook in?
Don't tell it can't happen. Of course one might say you did something wrong if you need to land downwind (swoopers not included heh heh) but in case it is necessary you better be prepared, huh?
Just one example: Day with relatively low winds, DZ with Landing-T and respective policy (Obey the T!). 40+ canopies in the sky. Land-T guy notices too late that wind direction has changed. Just around 5 knots or less. No one got injured, all folks landed downwind, some slid it home. Landing-T guy apologized, little bitching here and there, beer at night. Imagine some smartass had decided to "never ever land downwind" and had run into other jumpers' landings? Just one example. Things like that do happen. Be prepared, expect the unexpected etc Tongue


dragon2  (D 101989)

Jan 3, 2013, 9:01 AM
Post #14 of 47 (3914 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
'We shouldn't practice downwind landings because if you need to do one you've done something wrong.'

?

Unforseen circumstances aside, which WILL some day happen to you if you continue to jump, there are events and DZs where you simply have to land cross- or downwind on occasion, for safety reasons.

Downwind landings don't hurt/kill you. Having no clue what to do and just reacting can mean a broken femur or worse. Used to be, low toggle turns to avoid something or turn into the wind made up the bulk of skydiving incidents/fatalities. These days, canopy collisions are on the rise and if everybody around you is landing downwind, face it buddy, so are you if you don't want to run into anyone.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Jan 3, 2013, 12:28 PM
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Re: [potatoman] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

This guy didn't have a clue and the last thing you wanted was him flying with his feet at the head level of the spectators. All he had to do was land straight and he couldn't do that. Again note his hand position in the photo. He's turning INTO the crowd as he crashes.

BTW if the guy in the video is reading this YOU should look at your hand position and watch it through the entire video. It will explain to you why things were happening that you didn't expect. It wasn't wind, it was you steering your canopy in a direction you didn't really want to go.


(This post was edited by councilman24 on Jan 3, 2013, 5:18 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 3, 2013, 5:03 PM
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Re: [councilman24] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It wasn't wind it was you steering your canopy in a direction your didn't really want to go.

It's one of my favorite "it wasn't MY fault" excuses
unless they are going backwards.
It's hard to keep a straight face when they say that.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 3, 2013, 5:09 PM
Post #17 of 47 (3742 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
'We shouldn't practice downwind landings because if you need to do one you've done something wrong.'

You've been taught that.
Now is the time to question the teacher on "Why?".

You may have been taught "always land into the wind".
Now is also the time to question the teacher on "Why?".

Personally, I recommend doing and learning and practicing how to handle downwind landings, It's important tool in you skydiving too box.

Just like everything else, start slow winds and build wind speed up to your personal flight limits. Your first one may be rather quick and it would be good to have some experience under your belt.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jan 3, 2013, 5:24 PM
Post #18 of 47 (3729 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

>'We shouldn't practice downwind landings because if you need to do one you've
>done something wrong.'

You can say that about a lot of things. "We shouldn't practice emergency procedures because if you need to do one you already did something wrong with your gear" etc. In general, though, practicing under good conditions prepares you for when you screw up under bad conditions.


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 3, 2013, 5:51 PM
Post #19 of 47 (3710 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
'We shouldn't practice downwind landings because if you need to do one you've done something wrong.'

I interpreted this as sarcasm because of the quotation marks, but if it's not it's Crazy (not least because down-winders are fun!)


(This post was edited by DocPop on Jan 3, 2013, 5:55 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 3, 2013, 9:03 PM
Post #20 of 47 (3648 views)
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Re: [DocPop] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
'We shouldn't practice downwind landings because if you need to do one you've done something wrong.'

I interpreted this as sarcasm because of the quotation marks, but if it's not it's Crazy (not least because down-winders are fun!)

Uh huh....the fast ones...burn your butt cheeks.

More than once I had to shift butt cheeks back and forth to bleed off the heat of the slide.
LaughLaughLaugh


potatoman  (Student)

Jan 4, 2013, 12:48 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

Sneakers get hot too on high altitude DZ + downwind + hot day. Some shoe-wheels might turn into fun. Oh, lets not try that, might just get experienced.Cool


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 4, 2013, 9:29 AM
Post #22 of 47 (3559 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Uh huh....the fast ones...burn your butt cheeks.

More than once I had to shift butt cheeks back and forth to bleed off the heat of the slide.
LaughLaughLaugh

Oh yeah!! I know that feeling!

Got myself some legpad covers and Nomex underwear!


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jan 4, 2013, 10:37 AM
Post #23 of 47 (3528 views)
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Re: [DocPop] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

You may have gotten yourself a bunch of nomex underwear - But your nomex underwear weren't for your physical slides, Doc. Admit it. Tongue


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 4, 2013, 1:07 PM
Post #24 of 47 (3464 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You may have gotten yourself a bunch of nomex underwear - But your nomex underwear weren't for your physical slides, Doc. Admit it. Tongue


True. I do like Indian food too....


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jan 5, 2013, 9:52 AM
Post #25 of 47 (3379 views)
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Re: [peek] How to stop short on landing/comments on "Demo Jumper hits spectators" [In reply to] Can't Post

Nothing stops you faster than a faceplant! (sorry, just realized a low hook would be quicker)


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