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Double brake fire - what happens?

 

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hillson  (D 33134)

Jan 2, 2013, 5:05 PM
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Double brake fire - what happens? Can't Post

Just like the subject says...? I have Rigging Innovations risers / toggles that have "keepers" for both the top and bottom of the toggles (those elasticized hoods). Every once in a while the bottom or top on one side will release / come free on opening. No big deal, I guess, as everything else stays. I always set brakes / stow excess. Thought "maybe I was doing it wrong (I'm not)" and have had the packers set the entire system for me. Same results. With increasing frequency it seems. Risers were brand new in the summer and have ~150 jumps on them. Gonna have them looked at this weekend at the loft.

But the point: was doing a night jump on NYE and looked up after opening and both of the bottom end of the toggles were out of the keepers. The tops were *barely* in the hoods. Like *barely*. Excess was stowed. I don't routinely grab my risers on deployment...didn't on this jump.

So...outside of a very, um, "brisk" opening what should one expect? I assume a dual release that is asymmetrical (one before the other) would be worse but a simultaneous release would be just as concerning and speedy.

I've had brake fires before on rental / demo gear (oldish risers, since replaced) etc so a single-side fire is something that I'm generally familiar with - on rather docile canopies (large pulses, large storms).

Just had a full inspection / repack two weeks ago and everything seemed kosher...

Thx...did a search and couldn't find any infos...


AggieDave  (D License)

Jan 2, 2013, 6:07 PM
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Re: [hillson] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

A much longer opening that has the possibility of spinning up if the canopy gets moving.

That was my first chop, although it wasn't a brake fire, it was that the brakes were accidentally left unset. My lovely wife...er, packer who was nice enough to pack for me while I was doing a tandem missed the brakes and I hadn't set them like I should have after landing. It was chopped because it spun faster than Lindsey Lohan's car after Sunday brunch.


peek  (D 8884)

Jan 2, 2013, 6:23 PM
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Re: [hillson] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quite honestly, I don't understand why anyone would even consider accepting one premature brake release, much less both of them.

Please, get this fixed. And make sure that there is a good way to stow the excess brake lines. Start by contacting Rigging Innovations.

Any premature brake release has the potential to cause a serious problem, even a fatal one if your problems compound.


(This post was edited by peek on Jan 2, 2013, 6:27 PM)


hillson  (D 33134)

Jan 2, 2013, 8:23 PM
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Re: [peek] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

The excess doesn't come unstowed and it isn't a complete release...and RI is closed until next Monday. I'd never even heard of this - hence my question and the rig hasn't been jumped since.


jwynne  (D License)

Jan 2, 2013, 9:17 PM
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Re: [hillson] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

One of my toggles was coming partially unstowed on opening. My rigger looked at it and thought it was fine. I tried stowing it more carefully. Kept happening. I finally had a brake come unstowed on opening. Stupid me for putting up with it that long. I took it in and hand the lower keepers moved up and snugged. I think as the gear got well broken in the toggles just got softer and didn't stay tucked as well. I was careful on my first jump because I thought it might be harder to unstow the brakes. I just jumped it Saturday. Brakes stayed snug and unstowed fine. Good fix. Prevent the problem before it happens. Janna


sundevil777  (D License)

Jan 2, 2013, 9:41 PM
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Re: [hillson] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
it isn't a complete release

Please explain.

Way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, and mini risers didn't exist, I could not remember a single instance of a premature brake release. The toggles back then did not have or need an elastic keeper for the nose. If you want to prevent premature releases, then put slider stops on the risers.


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Jan 2, 2013, 11:01 PM
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Re: [hillson] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

When the canopy opens it will "Snatch" the risers as they accelerate out of the container. This action will cause the elastic tab type of brake retainer to release as the inertia of the "Snatch" forces it out of the retainer.

To demonstrate this take a separate unattached riser with such a toggle and while holding the riser by the connector link end give it a good whip or snap like a bull whip. The toggle will fly out from under the keeper.

Elastic keepers alone will not hold toggles during deployment they need either velcro or a "dot" snap to hold them secure. See:http://www.jumpshack.com/...RT&CategoryID=39
We developed the elastic keeper to hold the nose of the toggle to the riser to facilitate pulling your slider down over your risers. It was never intended to secure the toggle and even with one on the top and one on the bottom the toggle will "Snatch" out of the keepers.

Loosing the left brake will cause the canopy to turn right and vice versa and loosing them both will cause a streamer


potatoman  (Student)

Jan 3, 2013, 1:07 AM
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Re: [JohnSherman] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you please explain that losing both would cause a streamer....

I am still not sure whhy a canopy would take longer to open with unstowed brakes compared to stowed brakes.

Would the nose not be pointing down more with both unstowed, forcing more air into the cells?

With this said, I know if I have a long snivel, pulling on the rears does actually open it faster, but still I cannot understand this....


hillson  (D 33134)

Jan 3, 2013, 6:12 AM
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Re: [sundevil777] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
it isn't a complete release

Please explain.

Way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, and mini risers didn't exist, I could not remember a single instance of a premature brake release. The toggles back then did not have or need an elastic keeper for the nose. If you want to prevent premature releases, then put slider stops on the risers.

I'll look into the stops this weekend when I hit the loft...just have the std slink riser covers, currently.

As for the non complete release...sorry for the shitty attachment. Pretty much the max of my MS Paint skills. It isn't like this is an every jump thing...or even an every 20 jump thing. But it is enough that I've noticed - and is almost always the lower part of the toggle vice the top part of the toggle.

Thanks for all of the other responses, too...
Attachments: toggle.JPG (2.08 KB)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jan 3, 2013, 6:18 AM
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Re: Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

John Sherman makes an interesting point.

Many modern toggle designs are fundamentally flawed (although "usually" work OK) in that they rely a lot on toggle-in-keeper friction in those initial stages of deployment, before the brake line loads up and holds the toggle tight. (And hopefully tight enough against any slider grommets sometimes coming down and hitting the toggles.)

Old style toggles had velcro keeping them in place, while modern toggles often have things like two upwards pointing tabs or one upwards and one downwards pointing tab that are widely separated, that allow for any 'whip' in the riser to try to pop them out.

I've got toggles by Flying High (Canada), that add a downwards pointing tab just below the top tab of the toggle, so the toggle gets locked in better against upwards and downwards movement, all in one area of the toggle. Mirage Systems has a similar concept. (e.g., http://www.parachuteshop.com/risers.jpg)


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 3, 2013, 9:36 AM
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Re: [potatoman] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Would the nose not be pointing down more with both unstowed, forcing more air into the cells?

I am not sure why you would say this. The brake lines deflect the tail, but have no effect on the A and B lines


sundevil777  (D License)

Jan 3, 2013, 9:41 AM
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Re: [DocPop] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Would the nose not be pointing down more with both unstowed, forcing more air into the cells?

I am not sure why you would say this. The brake lines deflect the tail, but have no effect on the A and B lines

It might change the attitude of the entire canopy - where you will hang under it/angle of attack.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Jan 3, 2013, 9:41 AM)


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Jan 3, 2013, 10:09 AM
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Re: [potatoman] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Can you please explain that losing both would cause a streamer....

Sure; Due to the trim angle of the canopy (nose down) the canopy starts trying to fly before it is inflated. This causes the top skin nose to roll over the cell opening blocking air intake and cell inflation. Result, a streamer.
Some canopies are trimmed very flat and can get away without brakes. ie; Racer Tandem 400, Icarus Tandem.
If you lose only one brake, that side roles over the nose preventing inflation and the other inflated side over flys the uninflated side, thus the opposite turn to the toggle location.

In either case, if you have the altitude, you might try the "Ram Air Recovery Position". Both toggles to your waist or to a point where your toggle would be if your brakes were still set. You might locate this hand position on your next jump by pulling your toggles down while observing the location of the brake eye to the guide ring. Make note of where your hands are when your steering line reaches this point.


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 3, 2013, 10:45 AM
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Re: [sundevil777] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

Would the nose not be pointing down more with both unstowed, forcing more air into the cells?

I am not sure why you would say this. The brake lines deflect the tail, but have no effect on the A and B lines

It might change the attitude of the entire canopy - where you will hang under it/angle of attack.

Certainly that's what happens from full flight, but during the opening sequence there is little forward speed (assuming we're not talking tracking or wing suit) so I can't see that happening.

However that's just my opinion and I prepared to be proved wrong!


sundevil777  (D License)

Jan 3, 2013, 10:57 AM
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Re: [DocPop] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

Would the nose not be pointing down more with both unstowed, forcing more air into the cells?

I am not sure why you would say this. The brake lines deflect the tail, but have no effect on the A and B lines

It might change the attitude of the entire canopy - where you will hang under it/angle of attack.

Certainly that's what happens from full flight, but during the opening sequence there is little forward speed (assuming we're not talking tracking or wing suit) so I can't see that happening.

However that's just my opinion and I prepared to be proved wrong!

Don't you think where you hang under the canopy/the angle of attack changes when you fly near/past the stall point? The forward speed is gone in that scenario also.


jurgencamps  (D License)

Jan 3, 2013, 11:49 AM
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Re: [potatoman] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

During the opening, the nose has to catch air. The stabelisers left and right and the tail (with the brakes werd) will "force" more air to the nose. This will speed up the opening. Soms canopies are designed differently and will not need that the brakes are set.


potatoman  (Student)

Jan 4, 2013, 12:38 AM
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Re: [JohnSherman] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

Shotto Sherman. Makes sense. This weekend is me and filming my openings, to check out the slomo. (No, I will do it with my brakes stowed.....)

Then again, I jump a hornet, which is fairly flat. Will try this one with toggles not stowed from very high up, and send the footage.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jan 4, 2013, 3:31 AM
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Re: [hillson] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

I got one jump on a Cobalt 135 WL 1.8+ when I forgot to set my brakes.

I had my wildest opening there. My canopy was trying to fly with uninflated center cells in a shape of a V. I pulled some rears to help inflation. I got 2 full twist on the lines in a split second from stall recovery. I was really close to give up and cut it away.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jan 4, 2013, 4:46 AM
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Re: [peek] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quite honestly, I don't understand why anyone would even consider accepting one premature brake release, much less both of them.

Please, get this fixed. And make sure that there is a good way to stow the excess brake lines. Start by contacting Rigging Innovations.

Any premature brake release has the potential to cause a serious problem, even a fatal one if your problems compound.

A lot of fatalities start off as something relatively minor that begins the chain of events leading to the outcome.

Many of them are not necessary in the first place, and this is an example of that.....

Sort it out before your next jump.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 6, 2013, 3:47 PM
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Re: [JohnSherman] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

The first thing I want to say is my first (brand new, that my pimping mom,...) rig was a Racer purchased from Don in Pepperell in 93 or 94. I love Jump Shack.

BUT I have never heard of the:

"Ram Air Recovery Position."

I remember this quote from Brian Germain:

"I find that nervous pilots cant connect with their parachute because it isnt touching their bones."

I have returned to this sport after a long layoff and quite frankly I'm a little concerned that more than I have anticipated has changed...

Can you say Father John J. Geoghan ?
Wink


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Jan 6, 2013, 3:49 PM)


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Jan 6, 2013, 6:58 PM
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Re: [ChrisD] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
BUT I have never heard of the:

"Ram Air Recovery Position."

I made it up!Smile
That particular phrase is in reference to all of the instructions we have given to new Ram-air pilots over the years. It was originally; "Grab your brakes and go to your waist". Then cord lengths changes and it became "Go to Half Brakes". The point being that when and if you get into trouble that is the first action. If you are in turbulance go to that position. Don't even think about using your risers. Most problamatic turbulance occurs near the ground and you sure want to be in deep brakes if that happens.
"The point of greatest lift is just prior to an impending stall. That is when the boundry layer is the strongest and the most difficult to remove. It is also the best configuration for re-deployment if you get comprimised.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jan 7, 2013, 8:24 AM
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Re: [ChrisD] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"Ram Air Recovery Position."

I presume that some would know it as the "stall recovery position".


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 7, 2013, 2:19 PM
Post #23 of 50 (6309 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
BUT I have never heard of the:

"Ram Air Recovery Position."

I made it up!Smile
That particular phrase is in reference to all of the instructions we have given to new Ram-air pilots over the years. It was originally; "Grab your brakes and go to your waist". Then cord lengths changes and it became "Go to Half Brakes". The point being that when and if you get into trouble that is the first action. If you are in turbulance go to that position. Don't even think about using your risers. Most problamatic turbulance occurs near the ground and you sure want to be in deep brakes if that happens.
"The point of greatest lift is just prior to an impending stall. That is when the boundry layer is the strongest and the most difficult to remove. It is also the best configuration for re-deployment if you get comprimised.

That is soo perfect,...I am floored by this response. That is a peerfect description of an increasing issue and I am glad you illustrated the recovery so well.

With the advent of the canopy proficency card requirements, we have more people in the air than ever, rightly so, learning and using their canopies in ways that they haven't done in the past. As everyone is well aware, part of this self-discovery, is rear riser and toggle stalls. HOWEVER for those of us that have entered a toggle stall with a certian amount of enthusiasm, i.e. pulled to our waist as fast as we can,...and then released the toggles just as quickly because,..well we literally just scared the Sh$% out of ourselves...REMEMBER THE FINE PRINT THAT SAYS "RELEASE TOGGLES S-L-O-W-L-Y,"

you have provided the wourld with a phrase to accompany the fine print that all too often gets forgotten! I for one hope this phrase catches on.Cool
C


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Jan 8, 2013, 11:49 AM
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Re: [pchapman] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I presume that some would know it as the "stall recovery position".

You bet!


coticj  (D License)

Jan 13, 2013, 7:50 AM
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Re: [JohnSherman] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_e3H3fGpd4 of what happens to an Atair Radical with both toggles unstowed. If I had known what was wrong, I would probably react by pulling the toggles all the way down...


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