Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Perception and what we hear.

 


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 2, 2013, 1:37 AM
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Perception and what we hear. Can't Post

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I had some one message me that the winds were strong enough that the DZ had a B license restriction in place and this jumper seemed to have stabbed a single toggle for no apparent reason not far off the ground. The DZ shortly after this raised the winds to a C and then a bit later to a D requirement and finally shut down for the day.




This is a situation that just because its a boogie it is not always a great idea to push the limits of what is safe.
Copied From here http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4420441#4420441




The other day I was at a Boogie, cloud was looking iffy. Load organiser said, "we're wating for the current load to land so I can check the conditions, before we manifest."
Load lands, Load organiser speaks to fellow load organiser, He says, "im not comfortable in these conditions, so we are holding off for a while."
So my load organiser relays this info to me, I say, OK no probs, we'll sit and wait a while see if it improves.
Now
My Load organiser tells another jumper on our load the same as i was told.
His response,
OK that's no problem, Ill pop over and see if i can join the other group on the load.

Same discussion 2 very differing outcomes.


BTW The 2 load organisers are world record holding jumpers with thousands of jumps, very well respected in the OZ skydiving scene.



Now nothing bad eventuated from the jump i sat out from, but i was interested in the way the other jumper heard something completely different to what I heard.


Just because you can does not mean you should.


(This post was edited by Squeak on Jan 2, 2013, 1:48 AM)


jsaxton  (D 26818)

Jan 2, 2013, 9:52 PM
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Re: [Squeak] Perception and what we hear. [In reply to] Can't Post

Everyone has their own limits. That includes load organizers that are world record holders with thousands of jumps.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 2, 2013, 10:21 PM
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Re: [jsaxton] Perception and what we hear. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Everyone has their own limits. That includes load organizers that are world record holders with thousands of jumps.
No shit sherlockSly

you may have kinda missed the point.


jumpinjackflsh  (B 27757)

Jan 2, 2013, 10:38 PM
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Re: [Squeak] Perception and what we hear. [In reply to] Can't Post

I gotta give it a shot...

In my measly 75 jumps I've been in the air three times, wishing I was on the ground.

Twice landed in winds higher than comfortable, scary as hell to say the least.

Once a storm front came in, hailed/rained on while coming in for landing.

It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than in the air wishing you were on the ground.

Know your limits, and when to sit it out. Even if others choose differently.

Coming in hard, sucks and it's just not worth it.

Squeak? Is this what you were getting at?



Blues


potatoman  (Student)

Jan 3, 2013, 3:05 AM
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Re: [Squeak] Perception and what we hear. [In reply to] Can't Post

Perception of what they are capable of. The other person would probably pull it off this time, and the next, but not forever. I have been in sport long enough to back down, since I have seen plenty friends......When the pro's back down, I would certainly do too.

I have however found that at boogies, people tend to see it more "FUN" jumpin, and they tend to loose the safety first factor.


jsaxton  (D 26818)

Jan 3, 2013, 8:19 AM
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Re: [Squeak] Perception and what we hear. [In reply to] Can't Post

My point being that the other jumper in addition to the other organizer had different limits. And these limits can change for a number of factors. For example I would feel a lot more comfortable busting clouds with a 20 way than I would with a 100 way.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 3, 2013, 8:20 AM
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Re: [Squeak] Perception and what we hear. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Everyone has their own limits. That includes load organizers that are world record holders with thousands of jumps.
No shit sherlockSly

you may have kinda missed the point.

I guess I did too...ummmm...what was the point.

As far as I can see, you were comfortable with the limit that the Org had and the other guy wasn't.

Apparently you both heard the same thing and based your response on your own personal preferences.

????


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 3, 2013, 3:04 PM
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Re: [jsaxton] Perception and what we hear. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My point being that the other jumper in addition to the other organizer had different limits. And these limits can change for a number of factors. For example I would feel a lot more comfortable busting clouds with a 20 way than I would with a 100 way.


would you feel comfy busting clouds that white out from 5.5k down to 2k.


jsaxton  (D 26818)

Jan 3, 2013, 3:27 PM
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Re: [Squeak] Perception and what we hear. [In reply to] Can't Post

no, but it's happened. My general rule is not to bust industrial haze unless the bottom is above break off.


NeonLights  (D License)

Jan 3, 2013, 4:15 PM
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Re: [Squeak] Perception and what we hear. [In reply to] Can't Post

How dare he.
Oh and about the organizers not feeling comfortable going up. That may have something to do with organizing... They may feel comfortable jumping in those conditions, but organizing a load of people that may not can be a bad move.


(This post was edited by NeonLights on Jan 3, 2013, 4:18 PM)


akarunway  (A 143885)

Jan 4, 2013, 8:12 PM
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Re: [Squeak] Perception and what we hear. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
My point being that the other jumper in addition to the other organizer had different limits. And these limits can change for a number of factors. For example I would feel a lot more comfortable busting clouds with a 20 way than I would with a 100 way.


would you feel comfy busting clouds that white out from 5.5k down to 2k.
Been there, done that on a 2 way belly fly. Wondering what my buddy was gonna do as we bust the cloud. We were really close Both froze and came out at 2k just as we went in. Kinda hairy tho.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 4, 2013, 8:30 PM
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Re: [akarunway] Perception and what we hear. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Been there, done that on a 2 way belly fly. Wondering what my buddy was gonna do as we bust the cloud. We were really close Both froze and came out at 2k just as we went in. Kinda hairy tho.

May I kindly suggest that, in the future, if there's even a small chance of encountering haze, that you plan for it before you board the plane? Freezing and waiting for somebody to do something is never a good idea.

I'm surprised that you haven't already heard about...
- check cloud base on the climb to altitude
- break-off at your assigned altitude
- pull at your assigned altitude
- slow, right-hand circles under canopy until you emerge
(You'll hear some say fly a straight line in a cloud. I'll leave you to think about the dangers of that.)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jan 4, 2013, 10:34 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Perception and what we hear. [In reply to] Can't Post

>slow, right-hand circles under canopy until you emerge
>(You'll hear some say fly a straight line in a cloud. I'll leave you to think about the
>dangers of that.)

The danger of that is that you will have one chance to run into your partner on that 2-way. Then you are clear. If you circle you have one chance per revolution.


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 4, 2013, 11:11 PM
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Re: [billvon] Perception and what we hear. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>slow, right-hand circles under canopy until you emerge
>(You'll hear some say fly a straight line in a cloud. I'll leave you to think about the
>dangers of that.)

The danger of that is that you will have one chance to run into your partner on that 2-way. Then you are clear. If you circle you have one chance per revolution.

That is eerily graphic in it's simplicity.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jan 5, 2013, 9:47 AM
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Re: [akarunway] Perception and what we hear. [In reply to] Can't Post

This happened to me (sort of) many years ago at a boogie. 2nd load of the day, bases at 3000, tops a little over 4000, a 14-way belly dive. The plan was break off a little high (5500), track and stop above the clouds, fall through and then deploy out the bottom. This is/was pretty standard, don't want to be flying canopy in the clouds.
Everything went as planned, but the bottoms had dropped to around 1800 during our climb to altitude.
Everybody was pretty disciplined til 2 grand, then everyone got more scared of the ground than of a canopy collision.
People watching from the ground said it was neat to see all the blossoming canopies appear from nowhere.
My SOP for that type of cloud has always been to track 1000-1500 above the tops and be sure to stop
before hitting the cloud, fall straight through, deploy just under in the clear. This assumes the bottoms are high enough.


(This post was edited by ufk22 on Jan 5, 2013, 9:49 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 5, 2013, 6:03 PM
Post #16 of 16 (1623 views)
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Re: [billvon] Perception and what we hear. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>slow, right-hand circles under canopy until you emerge
>(You'll hear some say fly a straight line in a cloud. I'll leave you to think about the
>dangers of that.)

The danger of that is that you will have one chance to run into your partner on that 2-way. Then you are clear. If you circle you have one chance per revolution.

The danger of THAT is a drastic increase in the chance of collision with other flying randomly through the mist.


Turn the slow, right-hand circle.
1. You stay in one localized area instead of blindly rambling though other unknown areas...You stay in your column of air and I stay in mine.

2. You don't fly blindly off into never-never land

3. You don't meet up the 15 others flying randomly through the mist.

4. You know what everyone else is doing too.



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