Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Using my rear risers

 

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skydive435  (D License)

Dec 27, 2012, 9:29 PM
Post #1 of 33 (8603 views)
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Using my rear risers Can't Post

1200+ jumps . Been on 270's for over 300 180's +90's for over 500 and I still don't go to my damn rears. Need some help ...all my swoops have been using my toggles at the end. Just frustrated. Want to keep advancing. Flying a x fire 2-119 loaded at around 2.0
Thanks


(This post was edited by skydive435 on Dec 27, 2012, 9:32 PM)


Empadinha  (D 32431)

Dec 28, 2012, 2:27 AM
Post #2 of 33 (8505 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

Do some high pulls. Start your 270 as usual and practice the transition up high. It should be second nature, no need to look at where youre grabbing (Not to mention its safer too, since you are not looking elsewhere on your approach). Its also very important to know the Stall point on your wing while on rears.

Great article on rear riser stall:

http://parachutistonline.com/...ht/rear-riser-stalls

You can also practice doing a straight in approach with just a lil of double fronts if needed. This will lessen other factors such as speed and setup altitude, leaving you with more time to react and focus just on the rears (getting the feel of it).

Hope it helps! Blue skies.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 28, 2012, 5:33 AM
Post #3 of 33 (8449 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

 
You need to start flying up high with your rears. Use them to get back (unless you're really far, where toggles will generally get you further) and manuver around in the pattern.

Work on rear riser stalls, first from slow flight. Add some input to slow down and stabilze the canopy, and then keep adding until the stall. The same rules apply as with toggle stalls, ease into and out of the stall, and keep your hands level.

Next work on using rears in accelerated flight. You don't need a full 270, that will burn too much altitude, just a 90 wingover will be enough, but go to your rears and use them to pull out of the dive. Experiment with a slow pull out, and a quick 'recvoery' manuver. Push them both to the point of a stall to see where it's at, and what it feels like.

Also work on the transition to toggles. It harder to do up high, but the idea is to get 75% of the way to a rear riser stall, then drop the rears and quickly bring your hands down to 'meet' the canopy with the toggles. You might need 3/4 brakes to apply enough toggle to match your airspeed, so you're dropping your hands until you feel the tension on the steering lines.

Finally, do some straight-in landings with a rear riser flare. The steady speed of the approach, and being able to have your rears in your hands from 200 ft up, take all of the 'high speed' out of it, and it's just a simple rear riser flare (it's actually more like a rear riser plane-out, you'll still transition to toggles in the end).

Do all of the above at least 20 times each. You can combine them and do more than one exercise on a single jump, but the idea is that you want to be well versed in flying your rears up high before you try it on a high speed landing. It's not rocket science, but you'll find that the rears are very sensitive, even more so at higher airspeeds. You just need to be used to that level of response before you use it down low.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Dec 28, 2012, 5:34 AM)


Pulse  (D 16387)

Dec 28, 2012, 10:44 AM
Post #4 of 33 (8352 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

Start flying with your rear risers now. Learn them inside and out. Use them to fly with other canopies, use them to adjust your flight path. Make them become a non-issue.

You're only ready for swooping with them when you use them without even really noticing or thinking about it. When they're just an extension rather than something you're conscious of. I can't say for certain without knowing how much you jump. But I would recommend flying with them for a year before swooping with them. But then again, that's an arbitrary number...like most training numbers in skydiving.


BMFin

Dec 30, 2012, 3:33 PM
Post #5 of 33 (8136 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1200+ jumps . Been on 270's for over 300 180's +90's for over 500 and I still don't go to my damn rears. Need some help ...all my swoops have been using my toggles at the end. Just frustrated. Want to keep advancing. Flying a x fire 2-119 loaded at around 2.0
Thanks

I also jump XF2 109 @ 2.0 and I think there is almost no reason to use rears since the canopy recovers by itself.


jjudd  (D 31065)

Dec 30, 2012, 5:08 PM
Post #6 of 33 (8095 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

May I recommend getting some coaching with video debriefs following, will cost some money with a good coach but will get you on the right path much safer then advice here. It will be worth your time and give you a lot of insight into approaches and getting the most from your turns.


jjudd  (D 31065)

Dec 30, 2012, 5:12 PM
Post #7 of 33 (8091 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I also jump XF2 109 @ 2.0 and I think there is almost no reason to use rears since the canopy recovers by itself.


Likewise for you. You should be able to get a lot more out of your wing than just recovering on your toggles every time. Bad habits put us in bad places. Crossfires recover quickly but with a good turn if your relying on that you will be in a bad spot sooner or later


BMFin

Dec 31, 2012, 6:21 AM
Post #8 of 33 (8031 views)
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Re: [jjudd] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Likewise for you. You should be able to get a lot more out of your wing than just recovering on your toggles every time. Bad habits put us in bad places. Crossfires recover quickly but with a good turn if your relying on that you will be in a bad spot sooner or later

May I ask you how many jumps you have on XF2 and what WL ?


ShotterMG  (Student)

Dec 31, 2012, 8:49 AM
Post #9 of 33 (7985 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

Experiment with a slow pull out, and a quick 'recvoery' manuver


FYI....to the op, don't get the wrong idea here. You will never use your rears for a "quick recovery maneuver" while swooping. Your rears are for planned, deliberate, un-rushed inputs. You can act with your rears, but always use your toggles when having to react. IMO


EppyNephrine  (F 111)

Dec 31, 2012, 7:08 PM
Post #10 of 33 (7910 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I also jump XF2 109 @ 2.0 and I think there is almost no reason to use rears since the canopy recovers by itself.

There are different techniques that involve rears that you can learn. If you do a large turn with an efficient snap at the end and purposefully put yourself a hair low, you can tap your rears to force a recovery that 'slingshots' you out of the dive and carries much more speed than if the canopy were to recover on its own. This, of course, is a more advanced technique and carries with it a much smaller margin for error as you must have the speed from the snap to be able to force a quick recovery.


(This post was edited by EppyNephrine on Jan 1, 2013, 12:44 AM)


Fast  (D 28237)

Jan 2, 2013, 7:27 AM
Post #11 of 33 (7715 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Likewise for you. You should be able to get a lot more out of your wing than just recovering on your toggles every time. Bad habits put us in bad places. Crossfires recover quickly but with a good turn if your relying on that you will be in a bad spot sooner or later

May I ask you how many jumps you have on XF2 and what WL ?

I have about 600 on a XF2 139 @ 1.5. The canopy does recover on it's own and depending on what you're doing you can do very well working with that concept, but I was able to extend distance runs using rears vs natural recovery straight into toggles.


jjudd  (D 31065)

Jan 5, 2013, 10:42 AM
Post #12 of 33 (7499 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Replying to: Re: [jjudd] Using my rear risers by BMFin

Likewise for you. You should be able to get a lot more out of your wing than just recovering on your toggles every time. Bad habits put us in bad places. Crossfires recover quickly but with a good turn if your relying on that you will be in a bad spot sooner or later.

Reply:

May I ask you how many jumps you have on XF2 and what WL ?


I had put 500+ on a 123 crossifre 2 loaded roughly the same as you. 1.7 to 1.9 or so a the time and it was a great canopy. All canopies have a natural recovery, but that can be greatly jaded by your type of turn and your control on how you fly the canopy.

Lots of jerky turns and quick riser releases result in that "quick auto recovery". A nice slow more controlled turn with controlled release of your risers will give you something completly different.

The point im making posting to your reply is that every loading and type of turn and input will induce a different reaction on your wing.

Finding the safest one that gives you the best result is the hardest. Secondly if your not consistently doing things the same and are not changing inputs slowly (different turn initiations rate and speed of turn etc) it can and will put you in a bad spot sooner or later. Thats what my original post too you was for, the mentality that the wing will always recover real quick when low. Yes your toggles are important and there to bail you out if needed and for flaring at the end of your landing. All it takes however is you getting a nice turn in that one time that dives a little more and recovers a little slower and trusting that wing to always recover quick when low will get you in that bad spot soon enough. This is from experience of having done that, progressing too quickly at the time and having been fortunate enough to not have killed myself learning when i was without coaching. And it may have worked for 500 jumps for you so far but someone newer to that wing relying on that advice is poor for them.

I saw quite a different recovery after coaching and learning how to fly that wing properly, and ill add that rear riser input is a valuable on a crossfire with a proper turn but to each there own. Using your rears is going to trim you glide angle with less drag to the the tail of canopy, using toggles results in a flare and drastically more drag allowing us to stop thats why we have toggles. There is a reason coaching is out there and with it you will go faster and farther more safely then before

So again my advice go get coaching to help you progress safely and dont think you know it all, thats not an insult thats the facts for all of us. The OP is looking for advice to advance and that isnt going to be found here other then finding coaches and poor online advice. Written advice is never equal to in person coaching and video debriefing. Even the best of the best are continually evaluating themselves everyday debriefing on their own videos, other points of view etc and even the best still find themselves in bad spots but not having that mentality of being perfect and proper knowledge is what keeps them and all of us alive.

Again this is just to say coaching is there to help us all become better canopy pilots, its not a personal insult to you get coaching or dont, its a choice and its only mportant for you and you going home to your family safely at the end of a fun day


(This post was edited by jjudd on Jan 5, 2013, 10:53 AM)


sparkie  (D License)

Jan 8, 2013, 9:13 AM
Post #13 of 33 (7290 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1200+ jumps . Been on 270's for over 300 180's +90's for over 500 and I still don't go to my damn rears. Need some help ...all my swoops have been using my toggles at the end. Just frustrated. Want to keep advancing. Flying a x fire 2-119 loaded at around 2.0
Thanks

Just do your swoops like normal and go put your hands on the rears after you let go of the fronts, no input at first till the motion becomes second nature. I found it VERY weird to be coming down with my hands still up so high, just felt weird. After a couple of times you get used to it then go try some input on them.

While you should be familiar with the fact that it can stall on rears, it's not it stall from looking at the rear risers like some ppl lead you to believe. Because of the angle you make with your arms when holding on to the rears (I at least) it sometimes feels like you pulled the rears to your ears and then when looking on the video discover that you barely deflected them.

You can get a feel for it practicing up high. I'm assuming that with 1200+ jumps you know that a stall can happen at any speed if you abuse the flight controls ;)

Doesnt matter if you bail a lot in the beginning, just rinse and repeat. Make sure you get a good grip on the rears while also holding on to the toggles.


Pablo.Moreno  (C 13216)

Jan 17, 2013, 11:00 AM
Post #14 of 33 (7003 views)
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Re: [sparkie] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

When I took a canopy course, I still remember the phrase for rears was : "Less is more". If you can accomplish a good distance swoop with barely using any rears, that only means that you build enough speed that you don't need any input on your wing to keep it level.

I have had many swoops where I have place my hands on the rears but never really need them. I fly a crossfire II 1.8 WL.

Just make sure to know the feeling of the rears on your current wing, so you don't get to stall the canopy in a HP landing and hurt yourself.

Do high HnP and test rear stall point after a big rotation and also on normal flight and make that feeling one of your instinct so you know when it is too much.


5.samadhi

Jan 17, 2013, 8:37 PM
Post #15 of 33 (6914 views)
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Re: [Pablo.Moreno] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When I took a canopy course, I still remember the phrase for rears was : "Less is more". If you can accomplish a good distance swoop with barely using any rears, that only means that you build enough speed that you don't need any input on your wing to keep it level.

I have had many swoops where I have place my hands on the rears but never really need them. I fly a crossfire II 1.8 WL.

Just make sure to know the feeling of the rears on your current wing, so you don't get to stall the canopy in a HP landing and hurt yourself.

Do high HnP and test rear stall point after a big rotation and also on normal flight and make that feeling one of your instinct so you know when it is too much.
can you please explain what needing your rears means to you? I am interested.

thanks and cheers to this thread for the information Smile


Pendragon  (D 104102)

Jan 18, 2013, 3:55 AM
Post #16 of 33 (6876 views)
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Re: [Fast] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have about 600 on a XF2 139 @ 1.5. The canopy does recover on it's own and depending on what you're doing you can do very well working with that concept, but I was able to extend distance runs using rears vs natural recovery straight into toggles.

My experience is similar to yours, although the exact moment to use the rears to get the best out of the technique takes some practice.

I have several hundred on a XF2 at 109 1.8-1.9.


SRI85  (D License)

Jan 18, 2013, 7:52 PM
Post #17 of 33 (6766 views)
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Re: [Pablo.Moreno] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When I took a canopy course, I still remember the phrase for rears was : "Less is more". If you can accomplish a good distance swoop with barely using any rears, that only means that you build enough speed that you don't need any input on your wing to keep it level.

You ever watched a competitive round of speed swooping? The top finishers are always on rears.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jan 19, 2013, 12:56 AM
Post #18 of 33 (6748 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
When I took a canopy course, I still remember the phrase for rears was : "Less is more". If you can accomplish a good distance swoop with barely using any rears, that only means that you build enough speed that you don't need any input on your wing to keep it level.

You ever watched a competitive round of speed swooping? The top finishers are always on rears.

Do you jump a canopy tuned for competitions?Wink


SRI85  (D License)

Jan 19, 2013, 8:58 AM
Post #19 of 33 (6691 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

I jump a Katana. I hope you don't think your competition cobalt is a competition canopy.Tongue. It's not 1999 anymore.


Pablo.Moreno  (C 13216)

Jan 20, 2013, 1:50 PM
Post #20 of 33 (6555 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah I do, but on my current skill level and wing I don't think I am at the stage to swoop like the guys on the vids.

Maybe with a good downwind of 15mph I use my rears for a long time before I need to transition to toggles.


skydive435  (D License)

Jan 26, 2013, 4:41 PM
Post #21 of 33 (6368 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for all advise.Been working alot on them Going well.Getting over the unknown was the biggest thing.Then its was like.Oh thats it...Now its just progressing and being safe.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jan 27, 2013, 11:06 PM
Post #22 of 33 (6189 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

my friends best advice,
go to the rears when you want to, go to the toggles when you feel like going to.

Doesn't make sense at all. but just think about that dumbass advice on landing.

If that doesn't help, just cut the breaklines with hook knife.
than you'll have no other choice but to go all rears.

SOFIDARF.


castrodavidd  (C 33299)

Jan 28, 2013, 8:53 PM
Post #23 of 33 (6111 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

^^^+1 Trust your rears!


deathwish603  (B License)

Mar 10, 2013, 1:14 PM
Post #24 of 33 (5723 views)
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Re: [skydive435] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

Take some canopy flying courses, like Flight-1 or Brian Germains Canopy courses, Basic first, then Advanced, on the Advanced Course they'll teach U how to use your rears and fronts and how to land with 'em, and how to land downwind and crosswind and all other things... It may cost some, but totally worth it !!!


skydive435  (D License)

Mar 11, 2013, 8:42 PM
Post #25 of 33 (5593 views)
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Re: [deathwish603] Using my rear risers [In reply to] Can't Post

I know all the other stuff. It was just swooping on my rears. Been doing fine now and its going great . Thanks. Worked with dusty smith abit on my 270's . And have another swoop camp set up for may.


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