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Check-in debate

 

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nigel99  (D 1)

Dec 20, 2012, 12:17 AM
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Check-in debate Can't Post

I know there have been threads in the past, but in light of the recent Netherlands incident I thought I'd bring it up again.

Some DZ's successfully implement a check in procedure, whereas others claim it is not possible.

It seems to me that DZ's have a duty of care, to ensure that jumpers are safely checked in after a jump.

As most DZ's operate on weekends it is conceivable that an injury that may have been survivable, could end up as a fatality if the person isn't found in a timely manner.


piisfish

Dec 20, 2012, 12:34 AM
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it shouldn't be hard to implement, as all major DZ's claim that they have someone count all canopies opening, checking for cutaways etc....

we have lived a loss at a DZ I used to jump at, one jumper went in, with nothing out, just before lunchtime. Was noticed that he was missing about 4 hours later by his girlfriend (who was absent of the DZ for the day).


nigel99  (D 1)

Dec 20, 2012, 12:50 AM
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In reply to:
it shouldn't be hard to implement, as all major DZ's claim that they have someone count all canopies opening, checking for cutaways etc....

we have lived a loss at a DZ I used to jump at, one jumper went in, with nothing out, just before lunchtime. Was noticed that he was missing about 4 hours later by his girlfriend (who was absent of the DZ for the day).


Mac  (C 101464)

Dec 20, 2012, 2:33 AM
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Re: [piisfish] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
it shouldn't be hard to implement, as all major DZ's claim that they have someone count all canopies opening, checking for cutaways etc....

Check-in controls are useful to account for everyone, however if we are looking to add response time to injuries that maybe avoided fatalities, then I feel that check-in procedures alone are not enough.

Imagine the scenario, a busy DZ, someone doesnt check in (there isnt a counting canopy control). Tannoy announcements go out, people search, and eventually its determined they are missing. How long would this take? Yes, they would be reporting missing earlier (maybe), but would this help a time sensitive injury?

Counting canopies, and watching them until landing I feel is a more beneficial control should there look to be an injury that requires a quick response time. I generally spend a little time on DZ control to get a feeling to how conscientious the DZ controller is in counting canopies, and the process of when people land off. In the most cases here in the UK, the controls are extremely vigilant. I normally take time to visit new DZs on week days (or quiet days) to get a feel for their overall processes (amoungst other reasons).

I would feel much happier having people counting canopies and watching landings then whether there was a check-in procdedure. Saying that, I think both together create a belt and braces control.

The otherside of the coin, dont be reliant on anyone other than yourself, and take full responsibility for your skills and capabilities and back up plans. Ensure your skills are as good as they can be for when you may have to land off, or for the conditions, be aware of whats occuring around you in the conditions, as breaking a femur or ankle compound in an off landing situation could result in death or loss of limbs if you rely on being noticed. Polish up your skills to minimise the risks, and take a phone with you on jumps.

In reply to:
It seems to me that DZ's have a duty of care, to ensure that jumpers are safely checked in after a jump

You and you alone are responsible, and look out for your friends and fellow jumpers.


(This post was edited by Mac on Dec 20, 2012, 2:49 AM)


INCH2524

Dec 20, 2012, 4:53 AM
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Re: [Mac] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi guys and gals, i,m new to the forum but i think this is relevant !![:(
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20780780

sorry dont know how to clicky


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Dec 20, 2012, 6:05 AM
Post #6 of 84 (6482 views)
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In reply to:
Hi guys and gals, i,m new to the forum but i think this is relevant !![:(
http://www.bbc.co.uk/...orld-europe-20780780

sorry dont know how to clicky

Fixed it.


J-S  (C License)

Dec 20, 2012, 6:37 AM
Post #7 of 84 (6443 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't worry about checking in when with a group jump, but when I do solos and especially solos at a new dz (getting a feel before trying to find someone to jump with), I ask another jumper on the load to make sure to see me on the ground. Make a point to find them and ask how their jump went or something as a check in.

If a DZO wants or has a check in system, great, all the better. But it's still my responsibility 100% to lookout for myself and others firstly. I'd use a DZOs check in as a back up, people on the jump run can figure out something's wrong faster.

Edit: Its simple to police yourself and be responsible.


(This post was edited by J-S on Dec 20, 2012, 6:42 AM)


JackC1

Dec 20, 2012, 6:49 AM
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In reply to:
If a DZO wants or has a check in system, great, all the better. But it's still my responsibility 100% to lookout for myself and others firstly. I'd use a DZOs check in as a back up, people on the jump run can figure out something's wrong faster.

In my experience, when you're on jump run and you ask someone to do something when they land, they're quite likely to agree to anything you say then promptly forget you even exist about 0.00001s after exit.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Dec 20, 2012, 7:05 AM
Post #9 of 84 (6394 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It seems to me that DZ's have a duty of care

No, they don't.


JackC1

Dec 20, 2012, 7:24 AM
Post #10 of 84 (6380 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
It seems to me that DZ's have a duty of care

No, they don't.

I'd have thought that the authorities would quite likely take a dim view of a DZO that doesn't know or care if he litters the surrounding area with dead skydivers.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Dec 20, 2012, 7:33 AM
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Re: [JackC1] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry... I just get tired of people wanting to make the DZ responsible for everything...


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 20, 2012, 8:07 AM
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Re: [J-S] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If a DZO wants or has a check in system, great, all the better. But it's still my responsibility 100% to lookout for myself and others firstly. I'd use a DZOs check in as a back up, people on the jump run can figure out something's wrong faster.
The check-in is for the DZ. It's their cue to go looking for your broken, responsible self.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 20, 2012, 8:08 AM
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In reply to:
Sorry... I just get tired of people wanting to make the DZ responsible for everything...

+1
Nanny State penetrates the DZ.
Mad


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Dec 20, 2012, 9:38 AM
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So the dzo or dz doesn't care about you enough to notify someone that you are missing Should we just leave the bodies out there till someone else finds them? Hell who cares they're already dead so just leave the body for someone else to deal withUnsure


(This post was edited by Mr_Polite on Dec 20, 2012, 9:39 AM)


Premier Remster  (C License)

Dec 20, 2012, 10:23 AM
Post #15 of 84 (6243 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So the dzo or dz doesn't care about you enough to notify someone that you are missing Should we just leave the bodies out there till someone else finds them? Hell who cares they're already dead so just leave the body for someone else to deal withUnsure

That's exactly what I said... Crazy

Come on people...

I jump at probably the busiest full time DZ in the world. I've called my home DZ everything from a 1 cesna DZ, a 3 Beech 18 place, and places with a couple medium sized turbines. All these DZs had evil DZOs that dont care if the body count in their fields go up Tongue, but, they all looked out for problems.

Eloy has ground personnel looking out of mals, problems, etc. Do I expect them to see me bounce in? No. I don't just go to the DZ, not talk to anyone, and be anti social. It's up to me to set up a network of people who know I'm there. If the DZ spots me, great. If not, one my my friends will notice.

/rant


hillson  (D 33134)

Dec 20, 2012, 10:46 AM
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USPA reported 3 million jumps last year...how many jumpers are wandering around the dz woods, zombie-like, due to a lack of a check-in system. Zero.

This just seems silly to me.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Dec 20, 2012, 11:24 AM
Post #17 of 84 (6195 views)
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In reply to:
USPA reported 3 million jumps last year...how many jumpers are wandering around the dz woods, zombie-like, due to a lack of a check-in system. Zero.

This just seems silly to me.

There's been (I think) three fatalities in the last few years where the person wasn't missed and the body wasn't found for a few days. The one in Houston, the one at Bay Area Skydiving, and this one. This one and the one at BAS were both no-pull fatalities; a check-in system wouldn't have changed the outcome; there was some debate as to whether the guy in Houston could have been helped.

I'm with others who say that it really needs to be incumbent on us to look out for each other. Jumping in a group? Make sure your group is all accounted for post-jump. Jumping solo? Let someone on the load know, and ask 'em to check in with you after the jump. New to the dropzone and jumping solo? Same thing, but you'll have to introduce yourself to someone on the plane first. Sly


Rick  (D 28557)

Dec 20, 2012, 11:32 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
USPA reported 3 million jumps last year...how many jumpers are wandering around the dz woods, zombie-like, due to a lack of a check-in system. Zero.

This just seems silly to me.

There's been (I think) three fatalities in the last few years where the person wasn't missed and the body wasn't found for a few days. The one in Houston, the one at Bay Area Skydiving, and this one. This one and the one at BAS were both no-pull fatalities; a check-in system wouldn't have changed the outcome; there was some debate as to whether the guy in Houston could have been helped.

I'm with others who say that it really needs to be incumbent on us to look out for each other. Jumping in a group? Make sure your group is all accounted for post-jump. Jumping solo? Let someone on the load know, and ask 'em to check in with you after the jump. New to the dropzone and jumping solo? Same thing, but you'll have to introduce yourself to someone on the plane first. Sly


Wasn't there one a few years ago out west. i think an instructor at the DZ. Everyone thought he had gone back to his trailer and they found him later out of his harness ???


Premier Remster  (C License)

Dec 20, 2012, 11:33 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
USPA reported 3 million jumps last year...how many jumpers are wandering around the dz woods, zombie-like, due to a lack of a check-in system. Zero.

This just seems silly to me.

There's been (I think) three fatalities in the last few years where the person wasn't missed and the body wasn't found for a few days. The one in Houston, the one at Bay Area Skydiving, and this one. This one and the one at BAS were both no-pull fatalities; a check-in system wouldn't have changed the outcome; there was some debate as to whether the guy in Houston could have been helped.

I'm with others who say that it really needs to be incumbent on us to look out for each other. Jumping in a group? Make sure your group is all accounted for post-jump. Jumping solo? Let someone on the load know, and ask 'em to check in with you after the jump. New to the dropzone and jumping solo? Same thing, but you'll have to introduce yourself to someone on the plane first. Sly


Wasn't there one a few years ago out west. i think an instructor at the DZ. Everyone thought he had gone back to his trailer and they found him later out of his harness ???

That was the one in Houston K mentioned.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Dec 20, 2012, 11:38 AM
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I believe there was one at Perris and the jumper involved was russian? They noticed a car left in the lot after a while and the body was found weeks or more later.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Dec 20, 2012, 12:01 PM
Post #21 of 84 (6160 views)
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In reply to:
I believe there was one at Perris and the jumper involved was russian? They noticed a car left in the lot after a while and the body was found weeks or more later.

Oh yeah, forgot about that one.


J-S  (C License)

Dec 20, 2012, 12:46 PM
Post #22 of 84 (6130 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Check-in debate [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
If a DZO wants or has a check in system, great, all the better. But it's still my responsibility 100% to lookout for myself and others firstly. I'd use a DZOs check in as a back up, people on the jump run can figure out something's wrong faster.
The check-in is for the DZ. It's their cue to go looking for your broken, responsible self.

Yes, I understand the system. Having never encountered a check in DZ (just went across country last month with my girl and jumped a few places on my way), none that required a check in either, I relied on the senior jumpers that took an interest in the new guy to their DZ to make sure I was accounted for.

I would gladly check in if it was required, but I would also still ask another jumper to account for me too. The DZ check in would be added insurance to the jumper looking out for me also if I was missing. (maybe I miss worded my first post).


J-S  (C License)

Dec 20, 2012, 12:53 PM
Post #23 of 84 (6120 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
If a DZO wants or has a check in system, great, all the better. But it's still my responsibility 100% to lookout for myself and others firstly. I'd use a DZOs check in as a back up, people on the jump run can figure out something's wrong faster.

In my experience, when you're on jump run and you ask someone to do something when they land, they're quite likely to agree to anything you say then promptly forget you even exist about 0.00001s after exit.

That hasn't been my experience so far. I've always been met with some form of acknowledgement from others I ask.


hillson  (D 33134)

Dec 20, 2012, 1:28 PM
Post #24 of 84 (6090 views)
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Well, clearly it was an exaggeration to make the larger point that while there will be exceptions to the rule but on balance this really isn't a problem - or the associated inference that DZs aren't "safe" or "caring" or whatever. Extraordinary skydives the system is used of course. For the most part I see people looking out for each other.

That's all.


Mac  (C 101464)

Dec 20, 2012, 1:37 PM
Post #25 of 84 (6085 views)
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I sometimes forget this is primarily a Seppo forum.

The UK, is quite different with systems in place to account for everyone on each load.


(This post was edited by Mac on Dec 20, 2012, 1:38 PM)


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