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Emergency exit at a thousand feet???

 

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kd5xb  (Student)

Dec 18, 2012, 5:37 PM
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Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? Can't Post

Way, WAAAAAAAAAY back, we were taught that, if we got to a thousand feet, we could get out and go immediately to our reserve and land OK. Today, that seems to scare everybody to death. What gives???


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Dec 18, 2012, 5:49 PM
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Re: [kd5xb] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Way, WAAAAAAAAAY back, we were taught that, if we got to a thousand feet, we could get out and go immediately to our reserve and land OK. Today, that seems to scare everybody to death. What gives???

The use of AAD's and today's longer average opening times has changed the perception of altitudes. Back in the day, we used canopies that typically opened in 400 feet and didn't have AAD's. That meant we routinely tossed pilot chutes passing through 2 grand without a problem. With that as the norm, an emergency exit on a reserve at 1,000 feet wasn't considered anything radical. Butt cheek-squeezin' maybe, but not radical.

Many jumpers today use 3k as their minimum main deployment altitude. Exiting at a grand for those folks might seem like suicide.

Or they're just pussies.


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 18, 2012, 6:09 PM
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Re: [kd5xb] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh I love this game!

I'll take main for $1000 please. If you're behind me, I might let you hold my pilot chute for me.

Cool


kd5xb  (Student)

Dec 18, 2012, 6:38 PM
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Re: [chuckakers] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, Chuck -- that answer seems to make a lot of sense.

And Normiss???

A hahahahahaha!!! (I think...)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 18, 2012, 6:55 PM
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Re: [normiss] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Oh I love this game!

I'll take main for $1000 please. If you're behind me, I might let you hold my pilot chute for me.

Cool

Meh...Carbone is still with us.
SmileCrazy


Quagmirian  (A 110392)

Dec 18, 2012, 7:58 PM
Post #6 of 50 (5001 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

When I asked the older instructor at my DZ, who jumps and flat packs his Fury, whether he'd get out on his reserve at this height, he said "I'd jump me main at 1000 feet".


labrys  (D 29848)

Dec 18, 2012, 9:46 PM
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Re: [kd5xb] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Way, WAAAAAAAAAY back, we were taught that, if we got to a thousand feet, we could get out and go immediately to our reserve and land OK. Today, that seems to scare everybody to death. What gives???

4 people in a Cessna back in the day probably had no problem. 15 people in an aircraft that acts like a brick with its engine out might have reason to be more nervous at 1000 feet today.

An initial problem at 1000' isn't a big deal if you're sitting by the door on a Caravan and bailing is the best approved option. If you're up in front with tandems in the back, it's probably not going to be a good day.


JackC1

Dec 19, 2012, 2:31 AM
Post #8 of 50 (4853 views)
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Re: [Quagmirian] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When I asked the older instructor at my DZ, who jumps and flat packs his Fury, whether he'd get out on his reserve at this height, he said "I'd jump me main at 1000 feet".

In about 4.5 seconds and 280ft of free fall you hit 78mph which is the firing speed for many expert AADs. For an exit altitude of 1000ft, that puts you right in the firing line. If you pull straight out the door, it should be possible to avoid an AAD fire (and the resulting 2 out) but you would be cutting it a bit fine. I reckon you'd want to be sure that you can exit, pull and have a flying canopy in less than about 4 secs to consider it.


BASE469  (D 14328)

Dec 19, 2012, 2:59 AM
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Re: [JackC1] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

A Student or Expert CYPRES will not work if the aircraft is exited before it reaches
1500 feet (450m) above the height at which the jumper intends to land. In case of a
Tandem CYPRES 3000 feet (900m) has to be reached. Once the aircraft has climbed
through that altitude and CYPRES has become fully operational it will work for any
exit height

Copied from the cypres manual. If you're going to place one of these units in your rig, you should be familiar with the operating parameters.


potatoman  (Student)

Dec 19, 2012, 3:15 AM
Post #10 of 50 (4831 views)
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Re: [kd5xb] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

If the 1000ft is going to be 1000ft when I leave the door.
If the windspeed is not close onto stalling the aircraft.
If there is no hilltop that actually makes my exit alti 500ft


Reserve for sure, my main snivels....and snivels....and then something starts to happen.


JackC1

Dec 19, 2012, 4:40 AM
Post #11 of 50 (4772 views)
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Re: [BASE469] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A Student or Expert CYPRES will not work if the aircraft is exited before it reaches 1500 feet (450m) above the height at which the jumper intends to land. In case of a Tandem CYPRES 3000 feet (900m) has to be reached. Once the aircraft has climbed through that altitude and CYPRES has become fully operational it will work for any exit height

Copied from the cypres manual. If you're going to place one of these units in your rig, you should be familiar with the operating parameters.

Indeed but depending on your AAD type and the events leading up to your 1000ft exit, your AAD may or may not be armed. If you are in a situation where you do not know whether it is armed or not and where a misfire is likely to cause problems, it seems safer to assume that it is armed and proceed accordingly.


(This post was edited by JackC1 on Dec 19, 2012, 4:41 AM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Dec 19, 2012, 4:41 AM
Post #12 of 50 (4770 views)
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Re: [BASE469] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A Student or Expert CYPRES will not work if the aircraft is exited before it reaches
1500 feet (450m) above the height at which the jumper intends to land. In case of a
Tandem CYPRES 3000 feet (900m) has to be reached. Once the aircraft has climbed
through that altitude and CYPRES has become fully operational it will work for any
exit height

Copied from the cypres manual. If you're going to place one of these units in your rig, you should be familiar with the operating parameters.

While I agree with your statement about understanding one's equipment operation and limits, I think that in most cases - this one included - stuff like arming parameters shouldn't be part of a jumper's considerations when deciding how to handle an emergency situation.

The exit in question may be at 1,000 feet but that doesn't mean the plane didn't make it to 1,500 or higher before the eventual exit. Under those circumstances, the AAD might be armed. Bottom line - the margins are too thin to know for sure, so I wouldn't suggest having emergency procedures based on whether or not an AAD has armed.

Never assume your AAD will work when it should and never assume your AAD won't work when it should.

5 left and cut.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Dec 19, 2012, 7:34 AM
Post #13 of 50 (4665 views)
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Re: [labrys] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Way, WAAAAAAAAAY back, we were taught that, if we got to a thousand feet, we could get out and go immediately to our reserve and land OK. Today, that seems to scare everybody to death. What gives???

4 people in a Cessna back in the day probably had no problem. 15 people in an aircraft that acts like a brick with its engine out might have reason to be more nervous at 1000 feet today.

An initial problem at 1000' isn't a big deal if you're sitting by the door on a Caravan and bailing is the best approved option. If you're up in front with tandems in the back, it's probably not going to be a good day.

That's why SDAZ changed it s policy a couple years back now that helmets and belts stay on til 1500.


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 19, 2012, 8:15 AM
Post #14 of 50 (4619 views)
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Re: [kd5xb] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Really...we just play this game here a LOT. A search would suffice as opposed to re-hashing the same reasons over and over and over.

If I'm in the door and I hear OUT! at 1k, I very well might hand you my pilot chute....but I'll more than likely go for silver. But I'm not sure ... I'm not yet there.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 19, 2012, 8:35 AM
Post #15 of 50 (4596 views)
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Re: [kd5xb] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

>What gives?

Different training, different aircraft, different equipment.

About 15 years ago I did a C+P with a BASE-configured main (Pursuit 215) and a big PC. I deployed right out the door and was open within about 20 feet; I could clearly see the eye color of everyone in the door looking back at me. I'd get out at 200 feet with that system.

But if I was in the front of an Otter with a wingsuit, my Safire and a bunch of tandems? Starting an exit at 1000 feet would mean that I'd be getting out at about 700-600 and my main has sniveled that long (although the forward speed helps, even in an Otter trimmed for best glide.) And I'd have a lot more crap to deal with with the suit and helmet.

And that's for me, someone who started static line and has 20 BASE jumps. For a newer jumper who has done only AFF it might take them some time to either get stable or give up and go for an unstable deployment.


kd5xb  (Student)

Dec 19, 2012, 9:26 AM
Post #16 of 50 (4536 views)
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Re: [billvon] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, all. I didn't mean to "rehash old arguments", it just struck me odd and I decided to ask.

What's interesting to me, is that -- even though the JM/Coach will refuse to let somebody make an emergency exit at a thousand feet, we still call out "THOUSAND FEET" when we climb through that altitude. I got a chuckle from putting that all together!


airdvr  (D 10977)

Dec 19, 2012, 9:29 AM
Post #17 of 50 (4529 views)
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Re: [kd5xb] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Doubtful any pilot today will order a mass exit at 1000 feet. I only hope he'll find a place straight ahead to put her down and not attempt a turn to get back to the airport.


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 19, 2012, 9:31 AM
Post #18 of 50 (4517 views)
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Re: [kd5xb] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Safety belts?


kd5xb  (Student)

Dec 19, 2012, 9:32 AM
Post #19 of 50 (4514 views)
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Re: [normiss] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dunno, but if there's NO chance of getting out, then perhaps we need to keep safety belts on, even up through 10K or higher.


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 19, 2012, 9:40 AM
Post #20 of 50 (4503 views)
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Re: [kd5xb] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I'd certainly be asking those on eht plane near me WTF do we announce "THOUSAND FEET" for anyway???

I was always taught 1500 feet MINIMUM for bailouts.
Only reason I've ever heard "THOUSAND FEET" was for FAA approved removal of safety belts.

Sorry for being a smart ass.
I need to remember the new folks' perspective.
Smile


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Dec 19, 2012, 3:13 PM
Post #21 of 50 (4375 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Doubtful any pilot today will order a mass exit at 1000 feet. I only hope he'll find a place straight ahead to put her down and not attempt a turn to get back to the airport.

There many situations where a pilot might order an exit at a grand. Fire, severe control issues, catastrophic damage, hell even oil on the windshield might cause a pilot to want everyone out rather than risk having them on board for a possible or probable crash landing.

If the pilot believes the jumpers will be safer with a low altitude bail out vs landing with the plane, why would he/she not order everyone out?

Getting out at 1,000 feet isn't a good situation, but there are many situations in which it would still be the best option.

Look at it this way. If the plane was at 1,000 feet and on fire, would you rather bail or stay with a plane?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 19, 2012, 4:14 PM
Post #22 of 50 (4331 views)
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Re: [Remster] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That's why SDAZ changed it s policy a couple years back now that helmets and belts stay on til 1500.
So...the guy by the door gets to die with the tandems at 1.5K and below?

Meh...1k I get to see my reserve.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Dec 19, 2012, 4:16 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 19, 2012, 4:16 PM
Post #23 of 50 (4330 views)
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Re: [billvon] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For a newer jumper who has done only AFF it might take them some time to either get stable or give up and go for an unstable deployment.

That's why we teach them to deploy 1 second out the door in low-altitude emergency situations.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 19, 2012, 4:17 PM
Post #24 of 50 (4329 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Look at it this way. If the plane was at 1,000 feet and on fire, would you rather bail or stay with a plane?
I dunno...any hot dogs and buns on the plane?


DocPop  (C License)

Dec 19, 2012, 4:33 PM
Post #25 of 50 (4301 views)
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Re: [Remster] Emergency exit at a thousand feet??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Way, WAAAAAAAAAY back, we were taught that, if we got to a thousand feet, we could get out and go immediately to our reserve and land OK. Today, that seems to scare everybody to death. What gives???

4 people in a Cessna back in the day probably had no problem. 15 people in an aircraft that acts like a brick with its engine out might have reason to be more nervous at 1000 feet today.

An initial problem at 1000' isn't a big deal if you're sitting by the door on a Caravan and bailing is the best approved option. If you're up in front with tandems in the back, it's probably not going to be a good day.

That's why SDAZ changed it s policy a couple years back now that helmets and belts stay on til 1500.

SD Dubai does the same thing and they take their safety VERY seriously.


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