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Freeflying outside camera on Tandem

 

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Wharewaka  (D License)

Dec 17, 2012, 8:41 PM
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Freeflying outside camera on Tandem Can't Post

I am curious for some ideas/inspiration for a tandem video routine that includes free flying/backflying that is still a good video for the customer. I know it can be done and I don't want to hear that it will always suck. I put some freeflying in my vids but I want to work towards a routine.
I want to improve my flying while doing a good job for the customer.
Any ideas? Any videos on youtube you can link to?


piisfish

Dec 18, 2012, 1:35 AM
Post #2 of 32 (4529 views)
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Re: [Wharewaka] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Get lots of "face" shots so that the tandem student/passenger can identify, get some nice panoramic views, get "where he is coming from and where he is going", don't make it shaky, don't make it a video about "your skills" but about "his experience" Smile


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 18, 2012, 3:50 AM
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Re: [Wharewaka] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I want to work towards a routine.

If you want a routine, take up figure skating or gymnastics.

The trouble with tandems is that they're all different. The scenery, the lighting, and most importantly the reaction of the passenger will always be different and therefore the 'best' way to shoot it will always be different.

One you can do is to work on 'moves', and have more of them in your box of tricks to use at will. I don't know what your related experience is, but shooting this type of video (tandem or AFF) is a very dynamic activity in that you never know how it's going to go down.

You can plan for the 'best case scenario' but the truth is that it really ends up being a 'wait and see' deal for the camera flyer. Get off the plane, asses the situation, and do what's going to turn out the best product possible.

Quote:
I want to improve my flying while doing a good job for the customer

Just turn that though around, and you'll be all set. First try to do a good job for the customer, and in turn your flying will improve. Truth be told, I have trouble believing the numbers in your profile, a jumper with 12000+ jumps most likely would not be asking these types of questions, or needing to use tandem vids to 'improve their flying'.

In any case, keep your focus on shooting a good video for the customer, and not on impressing or advancing yourself. When I was a new camera flyer, a more experienced guy told me to keep it simple and not make it too 'disco', and he was right. Sometimes you need to fly your ass off to produce a 'good' video that looks simple, and sometimes it's just a breeze to make it look good, and the sign of a good video guy is one who will sit still and take the easy ride when that's what it takes. You could 'disco' it up will all sorts of fancy flying, but that's not the job, bringing home a nice product is the job.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Dec 18, 2012, 12:07 PM
Post #4 of 32 (4415 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I want to work towards a routine.

If you want a routine, take up figure skating or gymnastics.

This. Tandem photography isn't about the camera flyer's bad-ass skills. It's about the student. It's a glorified mall-job taking photos of kids with the Easter Bunny. Getting the best shot for lighting, angle, composition, and overall grade are bonus and great skills to work towards. But...learn the basics while shooting 'straight' and the rest will fall into place over time.


shveddy  (D 30995)

Dec 18, 2012, 4:07 PM
Post #5 of 32 (4353 views)
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Re: [Wharewaka] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh come on. I've seen plenty of examples of freeflying adding to the video quality. Of course it takes balance and you don't want a video to consist of just orbiting the whole time, but there is a chance that the dude has more video jumps than you guys have jumps period and it's completely understandable that he maybe wants to compare notes and get some ideas from what other people are doing. Maybe he has mad 12000 jump skills but could use some help to spark his creativity.

Even if he is padding his numbers by a factor or two, I see no harm in sharing cool ideas and tricks for any capable flyerto use in their bag of tricks. The standard issue "exit with tandem, fly to get face shot with sun behind you, make faces or give high five, spin a bit, do an orbit, film deployment" can easily be improved on in a tasteful manner, and if people get ahead of themselves and overdo it, then I guess we'll just have to trust whoever it is that oversees the vidiots at the dropzone to call him or her out on it.

Here's one I saw once:

Do a big orbit above and around the tandem pair to give them an idea of the scenery and location, but overshoot and end up about ten or fifteen feet below and in front, looking up while on your back and upside down relative to them.

Pause for a second, stick out your left hand so that it's in frame and beckon for them to come closer. Get up in their face and start geeking them so they make a face back at you as quickly as you (safely) can while rotating yourself so that they are right side up again, and to the whuffo it looks like they flew down to you with half a barrel roll just to make faces at you. The tandem master can mime a superman pose or pretend to swim while you're zooming up to him just to add to the whole thing.

There ya go, it's an idea. If it's done properly it actually looks pretty cool and it only takes an additional two or three seconds tops without being particularly distracting. And yes, it adds some challenge and excitement for the vidiot. Which is good a good thing.


Zooming around every which way on your head looks dumb, and treating it like a glorified mall job doesn't do the sport justice.


(This post was edited by shveddy on Dec 18, 2012, 4:08 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Dec 18, 2012, 9:52 PM
Post #6 of 32 (4317 views)
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Re: [shveddy] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:


Zooming around every which way on your head looks dumb, and treating it like a glorified mall job doesn't do the sport justice.

It's not about doing the sport justice; it's about the experience. It's about the student. There are far too many tandems that are shot by a vidiot wanting to have their own fun than about taking shots that capture the student's experience.
If the vidiot has enough experience to be flying head down, backflying, or sitting through the entire skydive, it's unlikely they'll be asking questions about angles.
If the skills are present, then of course yes,...various angles that may only be captured while freeflying are certainly valuable when tastefully used.
Then again...with more tunnel rats getting into the sky, I could be way off base in my assumption.

As a side note, check out the vids that Norman Kent, Joe Jennings, and similarly-skilled people create for tandems. They're simple in terms of what the camera flyer is doing, and yet they tell a memorable story because of the establishing, closeup, and action angles taken.


shveddy  (D 30995)

Dec 19, 2012, 12:28 AM
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Re: [DSE] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Yea, I saw that Norman Kent video about tandem videos and I definitely agree with it (who am I to argue) and I think we agree on the goal, but we're criticizing different ends of the spectrum.

I hate it when vidiots get bored and start treating it like a 9 to 5, punchcard type job and stagnate just as much as I hate it when people mess around at the expense of the student.

I'm just saying that there is a massive middle ground of challenging yourself to learn new, tasteful tricks that are fun for the student and fun for the videographer as well.

It keeps the energy up and some of the tricks can make an impression on the student. I think there is value to a student saying something along the lines of "holy *{%> that guy was upside down and he gave me a high five." after the jump. I guess that's what I mean by justice to the sport. Tandems are a quick window into our world and as a videographer and TI have always tried to show them what is so awesome about it so that they come join us.

Being upside down would be one of those things I think is cool to share.

By the way, I'm kinda mediocre at free flying so this is all conceptual for me. But I do challenge myself on tandems, generally trying new stuff towards the end of the skydive when I can just pretend like I meant to go low and watch the opening on my back. Of course not at the expense of keeping the student in frame.

And I don't think that having 12000 jumps precludes you from asking around for ideas. A least I hope not.


Wharewaka  (D License)

Dec 19, 2012, 1:32 AM
Post #8 of 32 (4276 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Dave (if that is your name).

I am sorry I have not updated my profile for a while, I guess now that I have more then 16600 skydives (from whom 10 000 are tandems with no injured passengers) I should just stop asking questions about skydiving and start questioning peoples numbers in their profile.

I should know everything about skydiving by now, really should I not?

I asked once here about "the ultimate setting" for stills. Then too was my jumpnumbers questioned.

Anyway- thanks for the more interesting replies. I was looking for further inspiration. I think with the experience I have it will be OK to spend 5-10 seconds of a tandem video to play around a bit, try out new tricks while keeping the tandem in frame and thinking about the light etc?

If the tandem has a not slow speed I can sit fly or fly headup or whatever term to use and be as close as I can be on my belly. Somewhere out there is a person who can fly very very good and still do a very very good job. There is also people who are on their way there and I was getting on this forum to see if I can find a video of them or something that I can get inspired and learn from.

I also respect a good bellyflier better then someone freeflying and doing a poor job for the customer.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Dec 20, 2012, 7:32 AM
Post #9 of 32 (4109 views)
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Re: [Wharewaka] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Look on YouTube for videos uploaded from Skydive San Marcos, PARTICULARLY the ones done by Yoshi and SuperDave. Amazing stuff. Definitely not your typical "cookie cutter" formatted product.

Chuck


shveddy  (D 30995)

Dec 20, 2012, 3:19 PM
Post #10 of 32 (4068 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

F%ck yea, that's what I'm talking about.

http://youtu.be/zTNInYDVi_s

Hey wherewhaka, just take a zero off of your jump numbers and maybe then people will take you seriously.


(This post was edited by shveddy on Dec 20, 2012, 3:23 PM)


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Dec 20, 2012, 7:16 PM
Post #11 of 32 (4032 views)
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Re: [shveddy] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

one thing to remember is yoshi is a pretty small guy, so freeflying at tandem speeds is a little easier.


Wharewaka  (D License)

Dec 20, 2012, 9:37 PM
Post #12 of 32 (4009 views)
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Re: [shveddy] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Ninja no Linku Domo Arigato Gozaimasu. (Thanks for the link)

Could not find one of this Super Dave?

More of these links please:)


faulk04  (D 32457)

Dec 23, 2012, 9:19 PM
Post #13 of 32 (3801 views)
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Re: [Wharewaka] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWKJ6hmd6XI


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 24, 2012, 5:41 AM
Post #14 of 32 (3733 views)
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Re: [Wharewaka] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
More of these links please:)

I'll continue to state the unpopular opinion, but I would question how some of those transitions look on the final product. Between the two videos linked, a couple of the transitions are dreadful in both proximity and camera angle, and the really quick transitions certainly don't end up looking good on video, it's too quick for the viewer to process.

If you snap a quick transition from one position, do a complete rotation and return to the start position, you've achieved nothing. If you transition from one position to the next, your goal was the new position, and a quick transition get you there. If you're just trying to toss a complete rotation into the video, then it needs to be slow and controlled all the way around, a quick snap is just 'noise' in the finished product.

With that said, it's clear that both guys have a great deal of experience and are working at a fairly high level. The single example of their work that was posted is probably not (if you ask them) their best work, and what they would want to be 'judged' by. It looks like one of the local TIs just shot some handycam footage of the camera crew on random jumps and posted them just for fun.

As an additional 'however', before the masses pile on and tell me I suck and am boring, I fly in a similar style on all my tandems, with freeflying being a part of literally every video I shoot. I'm not against the 'freedom of expression', I've just learned that there's a line you cross where all you're ecpressing is your lack of respect for the end product and your need to gratify yourself at the expense (figurative and literal) fo someone making their first, and possibly only, jump.

I've spent many years and quite a bit of time shooting tandem videos, and if you ask for an opinion about how to do it, you're going to get it. If you ask that opinion as a highly experienced jumper and camera flyer, you're going to get a very specific, pointed opinion that assumes you have both the ability and desire to work and produce at a very high level of quality.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Dec 24, 2012, 5:41 AM)


freefalle  (D 27777)

Dec 24, 2012, 8:35 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

 
concur.


In reply to:
Quote:
More of these links please:)

I'll continue to state the unpopular opinion, but I would question how some of those transitions look on the final product. Between the two videos linked, a couple of the transitions are dreadful in both proximity and camera angle, and the really quick transitions certainly don't end up looking good on video, it's too quick for the viewer to process.

If you snap a quick transition from one position, do a complete rotation and return to the start position, you've achieved nothing. If you transition from one position to the next, your goal was the new position, and a quick transition get you there. If you're just trying to toss a complete rotation into the video, then it needs to be slow and controlled all the way around, a quick snap is just 'noise' in the finished product.

With that said, it's clear that both guys have a great deal of experience and are working at a fairly high level. The single example of their work that was posted is probably not (if you ask them) their best work, and what they would want to be 'judged' by. It looks like one of the local TIs just shot some handycam footage of the camera crew on random jumps and posted them just for fun.

As an additional 'however', before the masses pile on and tell me I suck and am boring, I fly in a similar style on all my tandems, with freeflying being a part of literally every video I shoot. I'm not against the 'freedom of expression', I've just learned that there's a line you cross where all you're ecpressing is your lack of respect for the end product and your need to gratify yourself at the expense (figurative and literal) fo someone making their first, and possibly only, jump.

I've spent many years and quite a bit of time shooting tandem videos, and if you ask for an opinion about how to do it, you're going to get it. If you ask that opinion as a highly experienced jumper and camera flyer, you're going to get a very specific, pointed opinion that assumes you have both the ability and desire to work and produce at a very high level of quality.


tsalnukt

Dec 24, 2012, 4:41 PM
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Re: [faulk04] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Ummm. I really don't know what to say. I guess if you don't know any better the FLYING may look kind of cool. What does the video that the student took home look like??? Maybe we should be looking at the videos that the students took home and then try and look at what the video guy is doing. The dude went low and did the ol' "sideways suck-it-up" move. I only watched it once, but I didn't see the lens while he was doing it. If the POV camera cant see the lens I don't think the lens is seeing the tandem. Like someone else said, may not be the guys best work, so maybe someone should be posting some really cool actual tandem videos where the video guy incorporates some freeflying into the product. It won't be hard to figure out what they are doing and then we can start having a good discussion about freeflying tandem videos.


DARK  (B 31685)

Dec 24, 2012, 6:13 PM
Post #17 of 32 (3632 views)
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Re: [tsalnukt] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

5.28ish in this video, not much but a good perspective

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfTex1HCib4


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 24, 2012, 6:25 PM
Post #18 of 32 (3629 views)
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Re: [tsalnukt] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Like someone else said, may not be the guys best work, so maybe someone should be posting some really cool actual tandem videos where the video guy incorporates some freeflying into the product. It won't be hard to figure out what they are doing and then we can start having a good discussion about freeflying tandem videos.

Just to repeat it one more time, the two guys mentioned in this thread didn't ask to be included and did not provide nor post the footage linked, so I want to make sure that they don't turn into targets. They didn't make any claims about their skills, or the specific jumps that we saw.

Not every video goes the way you plan. Quickly recognizing your mistake and recovering ASAP is sometimes the right move, and if you have to sacrifice a second or two of footage to get yourself back in the game, so be it. The alternative might have been a very slow climb back up the slot and a lot of time wasted in the process.

I'll take Chuck at his word that both of the guys are good. I know his frame of reference, and if he says they can deliver goods, I believe it. One of the problems with Youtube is that anyone can post whatever they want, good, bad, ugly, or otherwise. While I'll critique the footage I see, I won't hold it against the camera flyers personally until they chime in with their impression of the jump. For all we know, they might see twice the mistakes that any of us do, and be frustrated that the jump ended up online for all to see. I know I'm my own worst critic, and I have trouble seeing anything but the mistakes whenever I shoot a video.


Wharewaka  (D License)

Dec 24, 2012, 10:29 PM
Post #19 of 32 (3607 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems like you have the recepie for a good tandemvid with freeflying included and I would like to see your finished product if you would be so kind? That is just what I am after.

Again, more links please:)

About improving my skills when I do a tandem vid you commented on earlier. Are you yourself not improving from year to year? What is wrong with improvement? That is one of the great things with skydiving- one can always improve.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 25, 2012, 5:54 AM
Post #20 of 32 (3569 views)
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Re: [Wharewaka] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
About improving my skills when I do a tandem vid you commented on earlier. Are you yourself not improving from year to year? What is wrong with improvement? That is one of the great things with skydiving- one can always improve

Without a doubt, but like I said there's a line between wanting to shoot a good video, and wanting to get better flying in a specific way. If you're on a tandem that doesn't lend itself towards the type of flying you want to do, but you insist on doing that anyway because that's what you personally want to do, you're on the wrong side of that line.

I can compare it to new jumper who say things like, 'I want to be an AFF I/wingsuiter/swooper, but I only have 50 jumps right now. What can I do now to practice for when I have enough jumps to do those things?'

The answer to that question is always to just jump, do a little bit of everything, and have fun. You'll learn 'on the job', even if you forget about your end goal and just focus on doing the best job you can on the next jump you're going to make. Do that a couple hundred times, and you'll have the 'skills' you need to start learning any of those more advanced disciplines.

Go and shoot videos with the goal being the end product regardless of what you want to do. Opportunities for learning will prevent themselves, and in time you'll have the skills you want without sacrificing the final product for any of your students.

Quote:
It seems like you have the recepie for a good tandemvid with freeflying included and I would like to see your finished product if you would be so kind?

No can do. When I went to work at a DZ that provides an editor and media (used to be film/tapes, now it's memory cards), I realized that I have no interest in editing, cameras, or really anything but shooting video when it comes to working with cameras. The end result is that I don't have a video or pic in my possesion from the last 12 years.

I can say this, my basic idea is to first stay inside of 'the bubble', and out of the 'cone of death'. 'The bubble' is an imaginary bubble around the tandem about 20 ft across (10ft on either side of the tandem), and 90% of the time you should be in there. Occasionally the background will present some clouds or a sunset that lends itself to a wider shot, but even then you should pop out of the bubble, get the shot, and get back in. (For the record I use a .45-ish wide angle lens on my video and a still to match. If you use a ultra-wide lens, which I don't reccomend, 'the bubble' gets smaller)

The cone of death, I hope everyone knows is the area above and below the tandem, where if you or the tandem has a premature deployment, a collision is possible. Stay out from directly under or above them at all times.

Outside of staying in the bubble, just do what the 'gods' tell you to do. If you get a video at noon, with the sun high in the sky, backflying and looking up at them isn't going to be it. In fact, you'll want to be as close to on level with them as you can get in order to avoid the backlight of the sun. If the student is game to keep their chin up, stay on level for most of the time. You can go low for 'artsy' backlit shots, but those are of limited value, and you should go down, grab one, and get right back to where you can see the student.

If you get a real lightweight, maybe freeflying isn't for you at all, regardless of the light. It might be a low sunset, but if you can't stay with them, or are on the edge of your speed range to do so, your job is to belly fly where you have authority and control, and can get the shots.

In terms of learing to freefly while 'on the job', use the deployment to your advantage. Set your beeper, or watch the TIs alti, and if you want to 'try' something, do it 1000ft before he pulls the handle. If it doesn't work and you fall out of 'the bubble', keep them in frame and the TI will dump soon anyway. The tandem gets 'bigger' when the handle is pulled, and so does the bubble.

So you try a move, and when you see that you're making it 'stick' through the deployment, move it up 500ft, and get yourself some working time. See how that goes, and so on.

It's like this - shooting a good video is job #1, and learning new stuff/freeflying is job #2. As long as you always succeed at job #1, anything you want to do with regards to job #2 is fair game.


IMGR2  (D 21089)

Dec 25, 2012, 7:33 AM
Post #21 of 32 (3552 views)
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Re: [Wharewaka] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

I like to consider myself a fairly competent tandem videographer.
In my small opinion I feel a little bit of both worlds delivers a very high quality video to the customers.
My first and foremost objective is to get a clean exit shot and a close up face shot, in the next few seconds I try to throw in some different angles and lighting situations, then back to a close up, high five or handshake before deployment. All of this happens by utilizing both belly and freefly skills.
Of course this all depends on the availability of freefall time. I am spoiled at my DZ because we offer tandems from 17k which gives you an amazing amount of time to experiment.
I personally see no problem with trying to deliver a higher quality product as long as you never forget what exactly your being paid for.


tsalnukt

Dec 25, 2012, 4:39 PM
Post #22 of 32 (3508 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

I figured I would get a comment like this. Just for the record, I'm not saying either of these guys are good or bad. The examples shown, in my humble opinion are not the best examples of what the OP was looking for and that is all. Someone mentioned that they are good examples and all I was trying to say is that I didn't think that they were good examples.....the flying on those particular videos - not the video guys. My point is that we should be looking at Tandem Videos and talking about them. It would give some anonymity to the camera flyer while allowing us to see how people are flying and what kind of video comes out in the end. I completely agree with you so you didn't have to repeat yourself for my sake.

I'm on vacation. When I get home I'll see if I can find a couple of vids for everyone to pick apart and tell me what I can do better.

What you said about the bubble and cone is tandem video 101. Everyone should know that if they want to fly video.


stratostar  (Student)

Dec 25, 2012, 6:20 PM
Post #23 of 32 (3474 views)
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Re: [tsalnukt] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What you said about the bubble and cone is tandem video 101. Everyone should know that if they want to fly video.

I will be going back and reading this thread, but in case anyone don't know.... I know for a fact there are a few of you out there who don't have a clue.... See here the attached pics.

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=2825263#2825263


Ok I went back a read the thread. I'm pretty much in the DSE & Dave camp here, and those linked videos, I would like to see the end product too... I bet they suck and most wuffos don't "get it" with the flippy floppy flying camera bullshit.

K.I.S.S. = memorable story!


(This post was edited by stratostar on Dec 25, 2012, 6:44 PM)


Wharewaka  (D License)

Dec 25, 2012, 10:14 PM
Post #24 of 32 (3431 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Safety
2. Students value for money
3.?

I think you guys have a chance to show everyone here some good vids that are safe and give students value for money?
Some guys provided links and I am thankful for them. Now I read a few guys criticism of them -can we see some examples of really good ones then?

This issue with "playing around too much" have been an issue for many years. I think they still exist because many many DZs allow it and it's up to the cameraguys themselvs to hold back and think about the students...

I am thankful for opinions and links. I got some PMed to me too.

Stay safe everyone and don't do stupid stuff on tandem jumps.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 26, 2012, 5:10 AM
Post #25 of 32 (3397 views)
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Re: [Wharewaka] Freeflying outside camera on Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Stay safe everyone and don't do stupid stuff on tandem jumps.

This, of course, is the other side of the coin. When a camera guy is 'trying stuff' out on tandem videos, it becomes tougher to stay out of the 'cone' or avoid running into the tandem.

One thing I've told other camera flyers looking to freefly with tandems is that if you're not already a 'good' freeflyer, then you have no business trying to mix it into your tandem videos. It's not the same thing as a 'regular' freefly jump, as tandems (even the fast ones) are always slower than a freefly jump, but you do learn quite a bit about control and 'creative problem solving' on the road toward becoming a 'good' freeflyer, and these are the skills you need to experiment with anything on a 'live' tandem video.


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