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An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets

 

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DFF  (No License)

Dec 11, 2012, 2:34 AM
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An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets Can't Post

Subject line edited by slotperfect - personal attacks are prohibited by the Forum Rules. This includes blanket PAs against groups like helmet manufacturers. There are members of these forums that own or are employed by a helmet manufacturing company.

cheaper, much more safe:

http://www.facebook.com/...632725361&type=1

PARACHUTISTS (who are not interested in looking supercool) PLEASE COPY THAT:

SKYDIVING HELMETS ARE EXAGERRATED EXPENSIV DEATH TRAPS FOR INSTALLING LINECATCHING CAMERAS!

EVERY CHEAP BICYCLE HELMET IS MADE TO ABSORB THE ENERGY OF AN IMPACT AND HAS HIGHER, AND PROOFED EN STANDARTS!

(use actioncams! they're smaller, lighter, comming with plastikmounts wich will hopfully break earlier then your neck and for sure they break earlier then massiv cam mounts on a helmet, fixed with srews and a chincup on your head)

(nice challenge: next time catch your helmet release faster then your linestrech.....well and add the time you need to realise that a line is entangeled with your helmet)


(This post was edited by slotperfect on Dec 11, 2012, 8:07 AM)


Shredex

Dec 11, 2012, 5:01 AM
Post #2 of 33 (4480 views)
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Re: [DFF] An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

Bro, quick release camera helmets have been around for ages.
Regular helmets aren't supposed to easily come off.
The possibility of it coming off from a freefall collision and then having it pop off exposing your noggin is not very safe.


(This post was edited by slotperfect on Dec 12, 2012, 3:37 AM)






davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 11, 2012, 5:25 AM
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Re: [DFF] An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
(nice challenge: next time catch your helmet release faster then your linestrech.....well and add the time you need to realise that a line is entangeled with your helmet)

Here's a thought, instead of trying to do something dumb like grab your chinstrap during a deployment, how about you pay attention to your body position and increase your chances for a good opening so you don't have to worry about cutting away your helmet.

You're free to jump whatever you want, but be weary about telling others what they should be jumping. Every skydiving helmet on the market today has 1000's (at least) of trouble free jumps performed by different jumpers all over the world. This is called 'proof' that they work well for jumping.

Your 'creation' has no such service history, and is an 'unknown'.

More to the point, show me the string of incidents where a helmet with no camera was the cause of an entanglement? What you're doing is pointing to the design of the helmets as being suspect, but the way they come out of the box, skydiving helmets are generally low-profile and do not present a snag hazzard.

If you want to call the camera mounting a problem, that's on the jumper who mounted the camera, not the helmet manufacturer. Truth be told, your 'safe' helmet would be just as prone to a snag once a jumper mounts a camera the same way they would with another helmet.


(This post was edited by slotperfect on Dec 12, 2012, 3:37 AM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Dec 11, 2012, 5:33 AM
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Re: [DFF] An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

Attached: A screen cap of the fb page of the helmet DFF modified. No zoomed views, but something for the non fb'ers.

So what kind of helmet is it anyway? Bike, paraglide?

You have some sort of weak link in the chin strap, as the release mechanism? What force is needed on it to break it?

I'd kind of like to grab your helmet and try to wrench it off your head, and see how your neck survives, to see if you do have everything figured out...

But everyone agrees (without using capitals) that skydiving helmets are crappy for shock absorption.


(This post was edited by slotperfect on Dec 12, 2012, 3:37 AM)
Attachments: dff's damn helmet.jpg (107 KB)


FreeFallFiend

Dec 11, 2012, 5:37 AM
Post #7 of 33 (4391 views)
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Re: [DFF] An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

Not bad, although I'm not a fan of your cutaway system, esp in a base environment. I've had openings so hard that I have momentarily blacked out once and more than once landed with less than 50% vision from being rocked so hard. Looks like you could easily adopt a cutaway system similar to boneheads. It's cheap (they sell their kit for around US$30) and much less rick of accidental activation.


(This post was edited by slotperfect on Dec 12, 2012, 3:38 AM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 11, 2012, 5:50 AM
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Re: [DFF] An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you jumped it yet?

Does that big hunk of foam in front of your mouth get to whipping around at a 160 mph?

With the couple of inches between your chin & the chin guard to catch air, does the whole helmet feel solid & secure in a track or does it get to buffeting around any?


(This post was edited by slotperfect on Dec 12, 2012, 3:38 AM)


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Dec 11, 2012, 6:06 AM
Post #9 of 33 (4344 views)
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Re: [DFF] An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

While I do agree that most all of the skydiving helmets are worthless from actual crash protection there are some you can buy that do offer a little protection (protech). What you made there isn't going to save your head, it's just cheap foam that is going to fall apart quick and won't really offer any crash protection.

The helmets we use don't need to have the same crash protection as say a bicycle helmet. Our helmets protect you from banging your head on the door, mild collisions with others in free fall, they hold your audible, camera ect... If a helmet was built that really protected your head well it would probably either be heavy or so expensive you would be crying about the price.


(This post was edited by slotperfect on Dec 12, 2012, 3:38 AM)


piisfish

Dec 11, 2012, 6:22 AM
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Re: An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

well it depends what you want to protect your head from.
do you want to protect your head from a 200km/h freefall into the ground ?


(This post was edited by slotperfect on Dec 12, 2012, 3:38 AM)


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Dec 11, 2012, 6:40 AM
Post #11 of 33 (4289 views)
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Re: [DFF] An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

So when can we expect you to begin producing and selling them? Think of the lives you'll save! Not to mention the big bucks you'll make,


(This post was edited by slotperfect on Dec 12, 2012, 3:39 AM)


DougH  (D License)

Dec 11, 2012, 7:04 AM
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Re: [skybytch] An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

Registered Jul 30, 2007.

You obviously have been stewing on this outburst for some time now. The real question is why didn't you take the time to proof read this drivel! Laugh


(This post was edited by slotperfect on Dec 12, 2012, 3:39 AM)


grimmie  (D 18890)

Dec 11, 2012, 8:14 AM
Post #13 of 33 (4129 views)
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A chin strap attached like that is going to lead to a crushed trachea on a face plant.


DFF  (No License)

Dec 11, 2012, 9:28 AM
Post #14 of 33 (4053 views)
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Re: [DFF] An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

seems like i pissed some guys off.
so feel free to open fire on me!

anyway.
for those hotshots who never read the details.

the chincup is removable!
the foam is the non-plus-ultra technology foam used in many new motorcycle driverprotections because of the unbeatable damping value.

the helmet is a allround helmet for paragliding, skydiving, basejumping, skiing ect. certificated with the EN966 standart for airsport helmets


about the chinstrap "release system":

if you got hit so hard in freefall you better have a helmet wich went of before your neck break
(ever asked youself why american soldiers in the 2 ww never closed their chinstrap? not because it is looking cool).
i think your neck will be already broken if you have such a hard freefall collision.

and it's proof that it is easier to grab something that you feel on your skin and you often put your hands on by closing and opening.

i unintentionally checked it on my own, just on another helmet (skiing helmet) but with same closing system .
on a 100m basejump a line got entangeled with my gopro. the cam mount didn't broke away, maybe because of the low opening speed there was not enough tension.
i was maximum stressed and had only short time to get of the helmet. one grab plus a hard pull on the strap and i landed save.


for the one who argued there is no need for a helmet when you go in freefalling. tough guy! how many landings without parachute do you have?


i just wanted to inspire the open minded in the parachuting scene.
the other ones who still jumping the old fashioned crap and those who still asking "for what do i need a helmet with a certificated schock absorbing layer?":
many,.... no better.. always have save landings! (or check out what "craniocerebral injury" means before your next jump)

cheers

DFF


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 11, 2012, 10:09 AM
Post #15 of 33 (4008 views)
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Re: [DFF] An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think anybody is 'pissed off' exactly, just a bit wary of a statement in all caps like~


SKYDIVING HELMETS ARE EXAGERRATED EXPENSIV DEATH TRAPS FOR INSTALLING LINECATCHING CAMERAS!


~your solution to a problem that YOU seemed pissed about, is to add a failure point to a bike helmet and do nothing what so ever to alleviate the 'snag problem' of line catching cameras...

I'm a relative n00b as far as camera jumping with only about 750...but I've never encountered a snag. I make sure I deploy in a stable position and I have fabricated additions to an L mount that will work to guide lines off & away from the helmet.

Your statement regarding high impact & existing helmets has merit, however I understand that try to use it within the design parameters.

I've been in the sport long enough that I've worn everything from motorcycle helmets to hockey helmets to fraphats & pro tecs to my BH Gunner & NVertigo-X...


I appreciate your little home-made headgear project, but I'm quite happy with what I have.

Please put as many uneventful jumps on yours as I have on mine (about 1500) before you YELL at me I'm wearin' a 'DEATH TRAP' Wink


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Dec 11, 2012, 10:16 AM)


BrettTaylor  (A License)

Dec 11, 2012, 10:59 AM
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Re: [DFF] An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
if you got hit so hard in freefall you better have a helmet wich went of before your neck break
(ever asked youself why american soldiers in the 2 ww never closed their chinstrap? not because it is looking cool).
i think your neck will be already broken if you have such a hard freefall collision.

I call BS!!!

The chin strap on a soldiers helmet (in fact probably every helmet) is part if the entire protection system and is used to keep the helmet in place. Using your incorrect example of soldier during WW2... The threats faced by soldiers in a combat environment consist of 2 main kinetic forces. Small arms fire (a round hitting the helmet either directly or by ricochet) and blast (this can either be direct explosive energy or detritus moved by the initial explosion). In both these cases you want your helmet to stay firmly on your head!

I can quote examples of how chin straps have saved lives in combat but you bore me.... Unless you have been in contact with the enemy and have first hand experience of that rather arse puckering situation I suggest you keep your analogies to something you know more about, My Little Pony for example.


(This post was edited by BrettTaylor on Dec 11, 2012, 11:02 AM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 11, 2012, 11:52 AM
Post #17 of 33 (3904 views)
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Re: [BrettTaylor] An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
if you got hit so hard in freefall you better have a helmet wich went of before your neck break
(ever asked youself why american soldiers in the 2 ww never closed their chinstrap? not because it is looking cool).
i think your neck will be already broken if you have such a hard freefall collision.

I call BS!!!

The chin strap on a soldiers helmet (in fact probably every helmet) is part if the entire protection system and is used to keep the helmet in place. Using your incorrect example of soldier during WW2... The threats faced by soldiers in a combat environment consist of 2 main kinetic forces. Small arms fire (a round hitting the helmet either directly or by ricochet) and blast (this can either be direct explosive energy or detritus moved by the initial explosion). In both these cases you want your helmet to stay firmly on your head!

I can quote examples of how chin straps have saved lives in combat but you bore me.... Unless you have been in contact with the enemy and have first hand experience of that rather arse puckering situation I suggest you keep your analogies to something you know more about, My Little Pony for example.




Well...the chinstraps were buckled behind the M1 helmets of WWll because there actually was fear of a close explosion pushing the helmet up with considerable force & velocity.

...it was also a consideration that during hand to hand combat the enemy could grab the visor from behind and force the wearers head back causing a loss of balance and exposing the throat to a blade cut, for this reason the US Army developed a new chinstrap release, T1, that would allow the chinstrap to unhook under a pressure superior to 15 pounds.

This development came in late WWII, too late to help the GIs then, but it was standardised ever since and on all M1 helmets refurbished and produced after.

That being said~ Not something remotely relevant to a skydiving helmet as far as I'm concerned...IMO losing a helmet in free-fall or on opening is a hazard in several ways.


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Dec 11, 2012, 12:24 PM)


BrettTaylor  (A License)

Dec 11, 2012, 12:28 PM
Post #18 of 33 (3872 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
if you got hit so hard in freefall you better have a helmet wich went of before your neck break
(ever asked youself why american soldiers in the 2 ww never closed their chinstrap? not because it is looking cool).
i think your neck will be already broken if you have such a hard freefall collision.

I call BS!!!

The chin strap on a soldiers helmet (in fact probably every helmet) is part if the entire protection system and is used to keep the helmet in place. Using your incorrect example of soldier during WW2... The threats faced by soldiers in a combat environment consist of 2 main kinetic forces. Small arms fire (a round hitting the helmet either directly or by ricochet) and blast (this can either be direct explosive energy or detritus moved by the initial explosion). In both these cases you want your helmet to stay firmly on your head!

I can quote examples of how chin straps have saved lives in combat but you bore me.... Unless you have been in contact with the enemy and have first hand experience of that rather arse puckering situation I suggest you keep your analogies to something you know more about, My Little Pony for example.




Well...the chinstraps were buckled behind the M1 helmets of WWll because there actually was fear of a close explosion pushing the helmet up with considerable force & velocity.

...it was also a consideration that during hand to hand combat the enemy could grab the visor from behind and force the wearers head back causing a loss of balance and exposing the throat to a blade cut, for this reason the US Army developed a new chinstrap release, T1, that would allow the chinstrap to unhook under a pressure superior to 15 pounds.

This development came in late WWII, too late to help the GIs then, but it was standardised ever since and on all M1 helmets refurbished and produced after.

Point 1 - The chinstraps were buckled behind the M1 helmets of WWll because there actually was fear of a close explosion pushing the helmet up with considerable force & velocity.

If a soldier was close enough to an explosion for the force of said explosion to force the helmet back with enough force to break the human neck then the force of said explosion would kill not by breaking the neck but by the massive internal injuries sustained by the sudden acceleration and deceleration of the torso. This is proved almost on a weekly basis these days with soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan having legs and arms blown off in huge explosions, several of (if not all) of these soldiers wore Helmets with chin straps that did not come off or fail and did not break their necks.

Point 2 - It was also a consideration that during hand to hand combat the enemy could grab the visor from behind and force the wearers head back causing a loss of balance and exposing the throat to a blade cut.

Bollocks!!! This is also easily achievable by placing the palm of the hand under the chin of the victim and lifting. Have you ever fixed bayonets for real? Because i have and let me tell you I would much rather my chin strap fastened and my helmet fitted securely to my head whilst I was running around the shit hole I was in, rather than falling off and offering zero protection at all.

The benefits of a chin strap (even with the old tin lid that was only designed to protect against shrapnel injuries) by far out way the benefits of not fastening the chin strap. Any other anecdotal evidence you may have to the contrary is misleading.

Yes in the news reel footage of US GI's during WW2 you will mostly see them with chin straps undone but that is because 99.9% of this footage is filmed outside of a combat situation. I tell you what you go into a real contact with the enemy wearing any helmet you wish with the chin strap undone and within the first 20 seconds you'll be picking that hemet up off the floor.

Chin straps undone whilst in a fire fight, diving for cover, up again and sprinting forward, diving back for cover... Think about it!


(This post was edited by BrettTaylor on Dec 11, 2012, 12:32 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 11, 2012, 12:37 PM
Post #19 of 33 (3860 views)
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Re: [BrettTaylor] An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

Please keep to discussing topics related to skydiving safety and training here, and avoid discussing bayonets and explosions.


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 11, 2012, 12:50 PM
Post #20 of 33 (3848 views)
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Re: [billvon] An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Please keep to discussing topics related to skydiving safety and training here, and avoid discussing bayonets and explosions.

Except when pertaining to demo jumps? Wink Sly


DFF  (No License)

Dec 11, 2012, 1:27 PM
Post #21 of 33 (3810 views)
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Re: [DFF] An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

@ brett:
sorry that i don't have detailed information about old helmets. i will ask my grandpa if i want to talk about ww2.

it will be difficult for me to come in contact with enemys. i am not working for the live taking party.
my job is to keep people alive under the risk of loosing live or health (and still they sometimes shoot at us, fortunately very rarely).


@ airtwardo:

i never said i found a jack of all trades device to eliminat every risk.
i am sure, and many experienced parachutists agree, this kind of helmets are cheaper and more safe.

chinstrap, well, i have unfortunately tested it as i said. i changed cam setup, after years of camflying i should have known it better but my release system worked well, knock on wood. just funny everybody is yelling at me because of this secondary detail.

i think i can say i have a little amount of experience, i am practising parachuting since 1998.
i have no idea how many jumps i have, i stopped counting after 1k (skydives) some years ago because i have seen many bad parachutists with a lot of jumps and vice versa.
still i would call myself a conservative parachutist.

@ all:
maybe it helps when you ask yourself why the protection in bicycling (what in public opinion is less dangerous then parachuting) is higher then in skydiving.
or why paraglider and hangglider pilots using certificated protective helmets.

i never had a hard collision in freefall, but i learned from some rough landings and critical situations under canopys and in other non parachuting activities. on my own and from others.

here the link for the helmet and the SAS-Tec foam for those who dont use fb:

http://www.sas-tec.de/...roducts/foam-sheets/

http://www.plusmax.de/...lmets/plusair-i.html


time to leave this little earthquake region.


(This post was edited by DFF on Dec 11, 2012, 1:33 PM)


piisfish

Dec 11, 2012, 2:51 PM
Post #22 of 33 (3746 views)
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Re: [DFF] An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know how to get to your page. When I click on your link it says that content is not available.
Thanks already for your more detailed explanations.
Could you also please explain your cutaway system ?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 11, 2012, 7:11 PM
Post #23 of 33 (3636 views)
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Re: [DFF] An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
maybe it helps when you ask yourself why the protection in bicycling

Because you are 100% guaranteed to hit a solid object (the ground) if you fall off a bike. If it's a road bike, you're likely to hit very solid ground, and may very well be surrounded with very large and very unforgiving objects (cars).

Quote:
why paraglider and hangglider pilots using certificated protective helmets

Both of those sports involve relatively low airspeeds, so low profile and aerodynamics of the helmets are not as important as in freefall. Additionally, the only area of concern is on landing, when the hangglider pilot is surrounded by some fairly solid framework. There are no airplane frames to hit, or others flyers you can expect to come into contact with.

Skydiving has the unique feature of freefall to overcome, where there is significant wind blast that is apt to come from just about any direction.

Sure, motorcycle road racers may go faster than freefall speeds, but it's all in one direction. The aerodynaimc of the helmet and rider position can be tailored to provide good protection without trying to rip the riders head off at speed. Try riding a motorcycle with an ill-fitting (too large) helmet, and it will try to lift off your head at speed and choke you with the chinstrap.

So you need to have a low profile helmet, that will stay put and not create 'lift' in any presentation to the wind. With that in mind, you encoutner some real limitations to what kind of protection you can provide.

What they do, like every other helmet manufacturer, is look at the 'likely' impacts the user might encoutner, and build for that.

Why do they have standards for bike, motorcycle, car racing, ski helmets, etc? Because they know the most likely type of impacts they could experience, and they make a helmet that will help in those scenarios.

Ever get hit head-on by a truck while riding a bike? Or ski over a 100 ft cliff? Probably not, but guess what, those 'certified' helmets won't do dick in those cases.

So yeah, if you go in clean or hook yourself into a fuel truck, your BoneHead helmet isn't going to do much for you. It was never deisgned or built with that in mind.

If you want to rush the door on a speed star exit and you bounce your mellon off the floater bar, your skydiving helmet will protect you. Take a foot or knee to the back of the head in a funnel? Yep, your skydiving helmet will take care of that as well.

Every helmet has limitations. Just because a helmet has a certification for some other sport doesn't mean it doesn't have limits, or that it's any better for skydiving than a skydiving helmet.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Dec 11, 2012, 7:12 PM)


DFF  (No License)

Dec 13, 2012, 2:39 PM
Post #24 of 33 (3331 views)
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Re: [davelepka] An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

wow, i should be speechless and i already wanted to leave the discussion but your competent post made me think about the facts you told us.

so i have some questions,

i guess you only landing/swooping over large water areas or where do you find "forgiving" ground?

low profile, so you talk about aerodynamics? like on the low profile helmets of the camera guys doing freefly and freestyle with the super aerodynamic canon rebel, mark3, handycams, or in earlier times dv tape cameras?


and the speed of you under the canopy, when you swoop or when you land with tailwind or without flare or a to early flare, is so low that a helmet without schockabsorbing layer will protect you?
i will also ask the many jumpers who ended up with a brain injury after a bad landing wearing a skydive helmet.

lets make a experiment. i will wear a cheap certified skiing helmet and you a expensiv bone head or any other skydive helmet. a third person can do a roundhouse kick into the helmets we wearing. i am eager to see what will happen. free aspirin for the looser of this game.
i think we better do this on the ground where the power of a foot can not reach the acceleration of freefall.
i don't like to have a impact with any limb of a person that is many km/h faster then myself in freefall, not even with my new helmet.

the EN966 certification is for AIRsport helmets. what kind of sport is skydiving or parachuting?

i don't get it, a helmet wich have higher limits is less save then a skydiving helmet that is only made for low forces like if you hit the door?

how often did you bounce your mellon on the floater bar? maybe your answer will give a reason for your conclusions, and a reason for you to wear a better helmet......

Crazy


so far, my last 2 cents, i am leaving while shaking my head in disbelief..........


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 13, 2012, 3:49 PM
Post #25 of 33 (3318 views)
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Re: [DFF] An Alternative to Commercial Skydiving Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
low profile, so you talk about aerodynamics? like on the low profile helmets of the camera guys doing freefly and freestyle with the super aerodynamic canon rebel, mark3, handycams, or in earlier times dv tape cameras?

The difference there is that a camera helmet made to carry those types of loads it very tight and form fitting. If you wanted to ratchet-strap a non-camera helmet to your head, then aerodynamics wouldn't be a factor. It wouldn't move because it was tight as shit.

It would, however, be uncomfortable and create excess drag, two things I don't think the average jumper would be ok with. If you want a helmet that you can wear comfortably, with a simple chinstrap, that will stay put and not put undue stress on your neck, then low profile it is (and must be).

Compare apples to apples if you want to compare shit.

Beyond that, consider the market. Specialty helmets have been around for over a decade now. Helmet manufacturers are free to build them however they think the market wants them. At $250 or $300 a pop, cost doesn't appear to be a limiting factor in the design or contruction, so why do we have the helmets that are available today?

It's what the market will bear. If people really wanted somethig built to a published 'standard', they would have asked for it, and gotten it by now. Many generations and models of helmets have come and gone, and if the changes you're crowing about were needed, or even wanted, they would have happened.

As it sits, none of them did. The performance of the current helmets is enough to satisfy the market. There have not been a rash of helmet-failures that have caused people to cry out for better lids, so this is where we are now.

I'm sorry that your big 'Fuck you' to the skydiving helmet industry didn't quite work out how you thought it would. A little research would have shown a dozen threads with guys asking the same questions you did and getting the same answers.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Dec 13, 2012, 3:51 PM)


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