Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
Racer Tandem

 


baronn  (D 22387)

Dec 10, 2012, 7:40 AM
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Racer Tandem Can't Post

Does/is anyone jumping Racer tandem systems? Looking for someone who has multiple ratings on different systems to chime in with their experience. Thanks


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Dec 10, 2012, 8:09 AM
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Re: [baronn] Racer Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Looking for someone who has multiple ratings on different systems to chime in with their experience.

This is a pretty broad question . . . you may want to be a bit more specific to get responses and to learn the things you are interested in.

Wink


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Dec 10, 2012, 10:21 AM
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Re: [baronn] Racer Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Read the reviews at:http://www.dropzone.com/gear/Detailed/88.html
Note the dates. The second review is for the current version.


baronn  (D 22387)

Dec 11, 2012, 9:05 AM
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Re: [JohnSherman] Racer Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks John. I have always liked these rigs, I have little experience with them.


skydivezimbabwe  (D 114)

Feb 11, 2013, 10:54 AM
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Re: [baronn] Racer Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

I did my initial training on Vector in 1999, then immediately converted to Racer. I have two Racers, one Vector and just took delivery of an Atom for demo purposes to the military.
Racer is the most comfortable and gives a level attitude to the skydive. I train students using PFF system and it gives a good, natural feel to the skydive.
We've tried a variety of canopies over the years. I'm stoked with the A2 340. The dropzone is 5000'AMSL and 30 degC in the shade and they handle the turbulence well. I've just tried the BT80 in the Atom and it works well too.
The racer drogue gives a snap on opening that adds a few kinks to my 42 year old spine. I prefer the Vector drogue.
I've had a few reserve rides over the years and the Racer Tandem always comes out straight and true.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Feb 12, 2013, 8:20 AM
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Re: [baronn] Racer Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

I had a really nice 2k3 Racer tandem system for a long time. I had the Firebolt 350 main in it and the entire thing weighed 38 pounds. I loved the size of the rig, loved the main canopy, and loved the fact that it was delivered to me (fully custom, embroidery, etc, etc.) in 16 days. I loved the way it fit, I loved the way the passenger was "sucked into you" when you threw the drogue, and I loved that it was so easy to undo the side straps under canopy. That's the good stuff.

Here's the bad stuff: I had the "retractable" drogue releases on my rig; possibly the second set they ever sent out. While they were more convenient than the "old style" free-floating handles, mine were WAY too short and I had three premature container openings on front-flip exits. The problem was that the springs inside the handles were too short to allow for a long-enough cable excess. I also had three instances where I had to fire my reserve past my fully-inflated drogue. the first one came when my three-ring drogue release "locked up" on itself because the loop on the small ring was manufactured too long. This allowed the ring to bind backwards, pull the loop through the zero grommet on the drogue bridle, and make it impossible to release the drogue at pull time by either of the three means available to me (left drogue release, right drogue release, cutaway handle). There are pics of that here on dropzone.com somewhere. The other two times I had the closing pin (cable) pull ouf of the swage on the bridle when I pulled the drogue release leaving me with a container lock with uninflated drogue in tow. There was no way to inspect this in it's original configuration because the nicopress swage was covered in heat shrink. I created my own fix for this by making double-ended flexy-pins (like on a strong) at a competitors rigging loft. Easy fix.

I had a real love/ hate relationship with this rig. I REALLY love John and Nancy, but in the end, when I decided I didn't need a "personal" tandem rig anymore I sold it. The DZ that has it now got a fantastic deal, I can promise you that.

Chuck


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Feb 13, 2013, 7:37 AM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Racer Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Here's the bad stuff: I had the "retractable" drogue releases on my rig;

Sorry about that "retractable release". It was a third party design which wasn't properly vetted. It turned out to be not manufacturable. We took it off the market. This was during a time when I was inactive.

Some times seemingly good ideas just don't work out.

I'll bet that rig is still providing good service.


DougH  (D License)

Feb 13, 2013, 1:20 PM
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Re: [JohnSherman] Racer Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

John,

Is the double sided RSL configuration the only configuration available for a Racer Tandem with RSL?


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Feb 18, 2013, 1:10 PM
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Re: [DougH] Racer Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Is the double sided RSL configuration the only configuration available for a Racer Tandem with RSL?

The Tandem is the same as the Sport rigs.
See:http://www.jumpshack.com/...anualOctober2003.pdf

On page 9 you will find:
The cross connector/reserve lanyard may be optionally assembled to a single riser. This assembly method is preferred by some operators as it eliminates the cross connector feature. However, this method does make the system sensitive to the connected side. If the connected side of the main releases first a main reserve entanglement could occur, as with other systems.


mbondvegas  (A 49817)

Feb 26, 2013, 8:04 PM
Post #10 of 22 (2582 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Racer Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Is the double sided RSL configuration the only configuration available for a Racer Tandem with RSL?

The Tandem is the same as the Sport rigs.
See:http://www.jumpshack.com/...anualOctober2003.pdf

On page 9 you will find:
The cross connector/reserve lanyard may be optionally assembled to a single riser. This assembly method is preferred by some operators as it eliminates the cross connector feature. However, this method does make the system sensitive to the connected side. If the connected side of the main releases first a main reserve entanglement could occur, as with other systems.


John, Why not convert your 2 sided RSL to a Collins Lanyard instead?


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Feb 27, 2013, 9:47 PM
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Re: [mbondvegas] Racer Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
John, Why not convert your 2 sided RSL to a Collins Lanyard instead?

I am not sure what a Collins Lanyard is. Every time I talk to Booth he defines it differently. All I know is that it is part of an RSL system, which doesn't work when experiencing a bag lock and you are on you back. See: http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

I am sure that it is not a cross connector and that the maled main will loose necessary drag with an asymmetrical cutaway.

I will be happy to compare Safety records. The Racer Tandem has over 5 Million jumps on it in the last 20 years and we have had one mis-rigged tandem and one RSL sport incident where the manual was not followed. There have been several other incidents where it was mis-used but without tragic results. A total of 4 of 5 total user errors out of 5 million jumps. No system failures!


mbondvegas  (A 49817)

Feb 27, 2013, 9:59 PM
Post #12 of 22 (2502 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Racer Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
John, Why not convert your 2 sided RSL to a Collins Lanyard instead?

I am not sure what a Collins Lanyard is. Every time I talk to Booth he defines it differently. All I know is that it is part of an RSL system, which doesn't work when experiencing a bag lock and you are on you back. See: http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

I am sure that it is not a cross connector and that the maled main will loose necessary drag with an asymmetrical cutaway.

I will be happy to compare Safety records. The Racer Tandem has over 5 Million jumps on it in the last 20 years and we have had one mis-rigged tandem and one RSL sport incident where the manual was not followed. There have been several other incidents where it was mis-used but without tragic results. A total of 4 of 5 total user errors out of 5 million jumps. No system failures!

That's a good record! Fair enough. Question: If one unhooks one side of the RSL on a racer as I think it says you can do on page 9, does it still function. Sorry, don't own a racer, but from my looking at the manual, it looks like unhooking one side would totally disable the RSL...which is fine...just making sure I understand.

BTW, I have owned a Firebolt and wish I still had it. Best openings EVER! Been looking for a good used one for a while now! I have flown Sabre2's, Pilots. Safire2's, Tri's Spectre's and find the Firebolt the best of the bunch, but at your $2,100 new price...I just can't bite the bullet and there are so few used one's on the market. I think the Firebolt is overlooked because of people's prejudice regarding the uniqueness of the Racer. I would not consider the Racer the best of the bunch for the sport rig market, but it seems to be as good as any tandem rig...if not better according to some accounts. BUT the Firebolt is first class. If it had a PD label...it would surely be the best selling canopy in the US.


(This post was edited by mbondvegas on Feb 27, 2013, 10:07 PM)


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Feb 28, 2013, 6:05 AM
Post #13 of 22 (2451 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Racer Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

John,

Pleas see the attached PDF file on the Collins Lanyard (currently, UPT uses a more streamlined version of it, though).
Attachments: Collins.pdf (642 KB)


fergs  (F 383)

Feb 28, 2013, 2:03 PM
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Re: [mbondvegas] Racer Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

What size Firebolt are you looking for?
Smile


mbondvegas  (A 49817)

Feb 28, 2013, 2:29 PM
Post #15 of 22 (2345 views)
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Re: [fergs] Racer Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

200 or maybe a 182


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 28, 2013, 2:51 PM
Post #16 of 22 (2331 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Racer Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
John,

Pleas see the attached PDF file on the Collins Lanyard (currently, UPT uses a more streamlined version of it, though).

........................................................................

Those instructions tell how to install a Collins lanyard on a Vector 2.
The Sigma, Micron and Vector 3 use a more graceful version that is mostly covered by the reserve top flap, ergo less risk of accidentally snagging your Collins lanyard.
There is also an update - for Sigma - that converts the (second version of) Collins Lanyard to a Y-shaped configuration.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 28, 2013, 2:55 PM
Post #17 of 22 (2327 views)
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Re: [mbondvegas] Racer Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

"
In reply to:
... Question: If one unhooks one side of the RSL on a Racer ... does it still function? ... from my looking at the manual, it looks like unhooking one side would totally disable the RSL ... just making sure I understand. ..."

......................................................................

Now you understand!


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Feb 28, 2013, 3:07 PM
Post #18 of 22 (2315 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Racer Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Rob,

Quote:
The Sigma, Micron and Vector 3 use a more graceful version that is mostly covered by the reserve top flap

The last time ( a few years ago now ) that I looked at the Collins Lanyard patent, both systems were shown on the patent documents.

JerryBaumchen


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 28, 2013, 3:10 PM
Post #19 of 22 (2313 views)
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Re: [mbondvegas] Racer Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

"
In reply to:
... John, Why not convert your 2 sided RSL to a Collins Lanyard instead?
"

.......................................................................

Those are just two of the multiple RSL configurations available.

... a similar type of Cross-connector was installed on Eze-Flyer Student containers made by RogerSport (mid-1980s).

3 -LOR system from Parachutes de France with two separate RSLs, each ending in a (Sigma-like) reserve ripcord pin. Pulling one RSL will not open the reserve, because you need to pull BOTH RSLs to release the reserve pilot-chute.

4 - The Air Anchor RSL installed on Strong's new TNT.

All of these systems try to ensure that both main risers are gone before a reserve ripcord pin gets pulled.

Holy Obscurity! Batman!


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Feb 28, 2013, 3:57 PM
Post #20 of 22 (2291 views)
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Re: [mbondvegas] Racer Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
That's a good record! Fair enough. Question: If one unhooks one side of the RSL on a racer as I think it says you can do on page 9, does it still function. Sorry, don't own a racer, but from my looking at the manual, it looks like unhooking one side would totally disable the RSL...which is fine...just making sure I understand.

You kind of understand. Let me clarify.
Certainly, if you want to disable it unhook one side, either side. But if you wanted to make it a single-sided system you would hook both sides to one riser. Probably the left one as it is most likely to leave last.

Thanks for the FireBolt plug. Designing it some 10 years ago was one of the most intense times in my life. People do seem to like it and that makes me grin.Smile


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Mar 1, 2013, 7:42 AM
Post #21 of 22 (2240 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Racer Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
3 -LOR system from Parachutes de France with two separate RSLs, each ending in a (Sigma-like) reserve ripcord pin. Pulling one RSL will not open the reserve, because you need to pull BOTH RSLs to release the reserve pilot-chute

From Page 10 of Racer Owners Manual, "What You Should Know About RSL's:http://www.jumpshack.com/...anualOctober2003.pdf

"The entanglement scenario is prevented with the two pin RSL (one pin to each riser) system. However, it re-tains the one side attached without enough drag to pull the pin problem".

The base reason for a x-conn is drag integrity not differential riser separation. All of the other systems fail in this parameter.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Mar 4, 2013, 8:42 AM
Post #22 of 22 (2068 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Racer Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Here's the bad stuff: I had the "retractable" drogue releases on my rig;

Sorry about that "retractable release". It was a third party design which wasn't properly vetted. It turned out to be not manufacturable. We took it off the market. This was during a time when I was inactive.

Some times seemingly good ideas just don't work out.

I'll bet that rig is still providing good service.

Yep, That rig is providing VERY good service to the people I sold it to. I think it's the best looking 2K3 tandem system you ever built, but Scott Campos would probably argue his looks best...LOL!



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