Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
clear your airspace before swooping

 


piisfish

Nov 27, 2012, 7:09 AM
Post #1 of 19 (3253 views)
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clear your airspace before swooping Can't Post

this swooper did a mistake, but absolutely recognizes it, and is very apologlectic about the incident. Lesson Learnt

VIDEO


beowulf  (C License)

Nov 27, 2012, 7:52 AM
Post #2 of 19 (3168 views)
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Re: [piisfish] clear your airspace before swooping [In reply to] Can't Post

Clearing the airspace wasn't the major problem. Crossing the runway so low was the first problem!!!

Clearing the airspace doesn't always work. It's easy to miss things and think you have clear airspace. Crossing the runway below 500ft where planes are most likely to be is just plain stupid.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 27, 2012, 8:05 AM
Post #3 of 19 (3144 views)
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Re: [beowulf] clear your airspace before swooping [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Clearing the airspace wasn't the major problem. Crossing the runway so low was the first problem!!!

Clearing the airspace doesn't always work. It's easy to miss things and think you have clear airspace. Crossing the runway below 500ft where planes are most likely to be is just plain stupid.

Agreed.

You can see that the guy is pulling a fairly high degree of turn (I didn't count exactly), but he hasn't developed the basic airmanship to know that he shouldn't cross the runway at a low altitude. It's classic 'putting the cart before the horse' behavior, he knows how to throw a big turn, just not where to do it.

If you look at the layout of the airport, and the direction of the resulting swoop, you can see that he could have started and completed his turn on the other side of the runway with just a very slight change in the final direciton of the swoop. Really, he could have even done the turn on the correct side of the runway, and carved about 15 degrees right on the roll-out, and ended up swooping the exact same line.


piisfish

Nov 27, 2012, 8:41 AM
Post #4 of 19 (3103 views)
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Re: [davelepka] clear your airspace before swooping [In reply to] Can't Post

in some places (not in this case apparently) you can fly over the runway and even land on it.

sure it is also a part of the mistake in this particular case


beowulf  (C License)

Nov 27, 2012, 8:50 AM
Post #5 of 19 (3079 views)
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Re: [piisfish] clear your airspace before swooping [In reply to] Can't Post

Even if it's allowed, it's still the most likely place where you could come into contact or close proximity to an airplane. So extreme caution should be taken and swooping would not be advised.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 27, 2012, 9:07 AM
Post #6 of 19 (3051 views)
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Re: [piisfish] clear your airspace before swooping [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
in some places (not in this case apparently) you can fly over the runway and even land on it.

Granted, if there is no traffic, you can land anywhere you want.

However, in this case, as I described, overflying the runway wasn't an 'essential' part of the line he swooped, and when faced with the choice to overfly the runway or not, with no benefit to overflying it, the pilot chose to overfly the runway.

I cross the runway at my DZ sometimes. Certain lines I like to swoop require you to overfly the runway, and I only do so after checking for traffic and locating the jump plane in the pattern (we only fly one jump plane at a time). If there's any traffic (canopy or aircraft) or I cannot locate the jump plane, I choose a different line.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Nov 27, 2012, 9:12 AM
Post #7 of 19 (3041 views)
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Re: [] clear your airspace before swooping [In reply to] Can't Post

And lets be clear....this type of example is not specific to swooping. All parachutist could benefit from understanding the specifics of this case and understand what went wrong. In most cases, its best not to cross an active runway while low under canopy.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 27, 2012, 9:16 AM
Post #8 of 19 (3035 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] clear your airspace before swooping [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In most cases, its best not to cross an active runway while low under canopy.

Good point. A good rule of thumb is to lay out your pattern so that it's all on one side or the other of the runway. You may have to modify your pattern, or land in a different area than you're used to, but those are far better options than getting hit by a plane making a go-around.


Abedy  (D 10153)

Nov 27, 2012, 10:59 AM
Post #9 of 19 (2967 views)
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Re: [piisfish] clear your airspace before swooping [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow. That's a mistake you only make once - you either learn and don't do it again or you're unlucky and land 6 ft under...
Never cross the runway at such a low altitude...


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Nov 27, 2012, 2:04 PM
Post #10 of 19 (2870 views)
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Re: [beowulf] clear your airspace before swooping [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd rather cross the center of a runway at 200 feet than fly thru a downwind leg at 800 feet...


(This post was edited by DBCOOPER on Nov 27, 2012, 2:53 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 27, 2012, 4:04 PM
Post #11 of 19 (2781 views)
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Re: [DBCOOPER] clear your airspace before swooping [In reply to] Can't Post

>I'd rather cross the center of a runway at 200 feet than fly thru a downwind leg at 800 feet...

I wouldn't. A skydiving aircraft at 800 feet is going to be on the lookout for canopies, and skydiving aircraft are the most likely threat at most DZ's. (And at 800 feet both of you have a lot of options.) If a skydiving aircraft has to go around at 100 feet due to someone on the runway, he is going to have _very_ few options, and if you are in his way, his choices may be you or the other jumper.


mircan  (D 32291)

Nov 28, 2012, 4:52 AM
Post #12 of 19 (2662 views)
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Re: [billvon] clear your airspace before swooping [In reply to] Can't Post

Was the plane landing or taking off? Can pilot even see someone frontrisering 720 degrees in front of the plane, considering that start altitude is 1000ft+?


DivingWombat  (B License)

Nov 28, 2012, 5:52 AM
Post #13 of 19 (2637 views)
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Re: [piisfish] clear your airspace before swooping [In reply to] Can't Post

I think - like mentioned on the youtube comments already - it's not a good plain to paint a skydiving aircraft camo. It is definitely the jumpers fault but still...


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 28, 2012, 6:08 AM
Post #14 of 19 (2624 views)
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Re: [DivingWombat] clear your airspace before swooping [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
it's not a good plain to paint a skydiving aircraft camo

First off, I'm willing to bet it wasn't the DZ that painted the aircraft. It's probably an ex-military aircraft, and they got it with that paint job. Unless you plan to cover the cost of a repaint, I wouldn't fault the DZ for the color of their plane.

The bigger issue is that the runway isn't painted camo, and the plane wasn't in a place you wouldn't expect it to be. As a jumper present at the DZ at the time of the incident, the canopy pilot should hve been well aware of the DZ operations for the day, to include - wind direction and the landing/take-off direction for the day, the number of planes operating that day, and the status of those planes at the time of his jump. All of this would have pointed toward a check of the upwind end of the runway and approach path before crossing the runway.

Take a look at the video, it's easy to see the plane sitting at the end of the runway in the one frame when the camera catches it. Seeing that it's the far end of the runway, that plane was either sitting there the whole time this jumper was under canopy, or was taxiing (making it even more visible) the whole time, in either case, the jumper had ample time to locate the aircraft.


Ron

Nov 28, 2012, 9:40 AM
Post #15 of 19 (2530 views)
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Re: [piisfish] clear your airspace before swooping [In reply to] Can't Post

Another perfect example how people claim they can whip big turns in the landing area with other traffic are just insane.

If they missed a PLANE on a RUNWAY... Think how easy it is to miss a canopy that could be almost anywhere.


DougH  (D License)

Nov 29, 2012, 7:42 AM
Post #16 of 19 (2225 views)
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Re: [Ron] clear your airspace before swooping [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Another perfect example how people claim they can whip big turns in the landing area with other traffic are just insane.

If they missed a PLANE on a RUNWAY... Think how easy it is to miss a canopy that could be almost anywhere.

X2

Unless you are jumping at a DZ operating a single 182 you can't "clear your airspace", and even with only three other variables in the air that is dubious.

You clear your airspace by not swooping in traffic, do a low pass or a full altitude clear and pull so you have your own airpsace, period.


Arvoitus  (D 3917)

Dec 3, 2012, 2:32 AM
Post #17 of 19 (1899 views)
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Re: [DivingWombat] clear your airspace before swooping [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think - like mentioned on the youtube comments already - it's not a good plain to paint a skydiving aircraft camo. It is definitely the jumpers fault but still...

That is just a silly excuse, even with a that low video quality, without pausing or without slowing down the video its easy to spot the plane as it is a big black blop on long light gray line.


DJL  (C License)

Dec 7, 2012, 4:41 PM
Post #18 of 19 (1698 views)
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Re: [piisfish] clear your airspace before swooping [In reply to] Can't Post

Clearing your airspace is like checking the water for crocodiles. You can only find out that something IS there.


DocPop  (C License)

Dec 7, 2012, 4:51 PM
Post #19 of 19 (1692 views)
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Re: [DJL] clear your airspace before swooping [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Clearing your airspace is like checking the water for crocodiles. You can only find out that something IS there.

I like that!



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