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experimental aircraft as jump ships?

 

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mrpilotman

Dec 7, 2012, 4:29 PM
Post #1 of 26 (4474 views)
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experimental aircraft as jump ships? Can't Post

Can you use an exerimental aircraft for a jump ship?


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 7, 2012, 4:45 PM
Post #2 of 26 (4418 views)
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Re: [mrpilotman] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Can you use an exerimental aircraft for a jump ship?

Experimental aircraft can't be used for hire...read into that what you will.

Angelic


oldwomanc6

Dec 7, 2012, 6:43 PM
Post #3 of 26 (4339 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Can you use an exerimental aircraft for a jump ship?

Experimental aircraft can't be used for hire...read into that what you will.

Angelic

All donations are gratefully accepted! Wink


oldwomanc6

Dec 7, 2012, 6:48 PM
Post #4 of 26 (4334 views)
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Re: [mrpilotman] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

You won't be catching me jumping out of a push-pull, though! Pirate


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Dec 7, 2012, 7:24 PM
Post #5 of 26 (4296 views)
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Re: [oldwomanc6] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Can you use an exerimental aircraft for a jump ship?

Experimental aircraft can't be used for hire...read into that what you will.

Angelic

All donations are gratefully accepted! Wink


And extra altitude can be obtained in the typical manner!

WinkSmileLaugh


michaelmullins  (D 1643)

Dec 7, 2012, 7:28 PM
Post #6 of 26 (4289 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Can you use an exerimental aircraft for a jump ship?

Experimental aircraft can't be used for hire...read into that what you will.

Angelic

In the US, you cannot jump out of an Experimental aircraft, period.

Mike Mullins


kallend  (D 23151)

Dec 7, 2012, 7:46 PM
Post #7 of 26 (4276 views)
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Re: [michaelmullins] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Can you use an exerimental aircraft for a jump ship?

Experimental aircraft can't be used for hire...read into that what you will.

Angelic

In the US, you cannot jump out of an Experimental aircraft, period.

Mike Mullins

Even if it's on fire?


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Dec 7, 2012, 8:02 PM
Post #8 of 26 (4260 views)
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Re: [michaelmullins] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Can you use an exerimental aircraft for a jump ship?
Experimental aircraft can't be used for hire...read into that what you will.
Angelic
In the US, you cannot jump out of an Experimental aircraft, period.
Mike Mullins

Can you cite the FAR on that?


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 7, 2012, 8:28 PM
Post #9 of 26 (4241 views)
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Re: [michaelmullins] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Can you use an experimental aircraft for a jump ship?

Experimental aircraft can't be used for hire...read into that what you will.

Angelic

In the US, you cannot jump out of an Experimental aircraft, period.

Mike Mullins


Not even a An-2?

How about an AirVan?

Glider??

Pitts?

Balloon?

I've jumped from all those in the US and they were definitely placarded experimental.


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Dec 7, 2012, 8:34 PM)


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Dec 7, 2012, 8:52 PM
Post #10 of 26 (4228 views)
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Re: [michaelmullins] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Can you use an exerimental aircraft for a jump ship?

Experimental aircraft can't be used for hire...read into that what you will.

Angelic

In the US, you cannot jump out of an Experimental aircraft, period.

Mike Mullins

That's what I was thinking Mike but I was too lazy to look it up. I've been through the conversation more than once trying to get a Huey for the boogie. Most of them are flying either in Restricted or Experimental Cats.


michaelmullins  (D 1643)

Dec 7, 2012, 9:57 PM
Post #11 of 26 (4198 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Can you use an experimental aircraft for a jump ship?

Experimental aircraft can't be used for hire...read into that what you will.

Angelic

In the US, you cannot jump out of an Experimental aircraft, period.

Mike Mullins


Not even a An-2?

How about an AirVan?

Glider??

Pitts?

Balloon?

I've jumped from all those in the US and they were definitely placarded experimental.

Unless you sacrificed the Pitts when you jumped it, it was a 2 place Pitts, either an S2A, S2B, or S2C, all certified aircraft.

I do not know of any Experimental 2-place gliders, there may be some.

Likewise for ballons, most all are certified aircraft.

The AirVan is a certified aircraft.

The AN-2 was used at the Freefall Convention for a short time one year, it left abruptly when the FAA began to question it. Some AN-2, and other aircraft, are in the "Restricted" category. Aircraft in this category are restricted to the limitations the FAA places on it at the time. The restriction could include intentional parachute jumping.

The AirVan is a certified aircraft.

An interesting fact is the last C130 used at the convention was in the Restricted category, the restriction did not specify skydiving. However, the restriction did allow aerial photography and each jumper signed a statement that they were using the aircraft for "aerial photography" and each jumper, technically, was carrying a camera.

I do not doubt that many jumps are made from Experimental aircraft and just because it happens does not make it legal. I personally do not care how many jumps are made from Experimental Aircraft, I am just saying what the rules are.

Mike Mullins


michaelmullins  (D 1643)

Dec 7, 2012, 10:00 PM
Post #12 of 26 (4193 views)
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Re: [kallend] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Can you use an exerimental aircraft for a jump ship?

Experimental aircraft can't be used for hire...read into that what you will.

Angelic

In the US, you cannot jump out of an Experimental aircraft, period.

Mike Mullins

Even if it's on fire?

Correct, you must go down with the aircraft.


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 7, 2012, 10:18 PM
Post #13 of 26 (4184 views)
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Re: [michaelmullins] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

It was a two place Pitts but I remember seeing an experimental placard riveted in the cockpit


The air-van I jumped was experimental, it was serial 1 or 2, it was at Oshkosh and not US certified at the time.

The glider was a two place home-built, also placarded exp.

I jumped a Wilga not certified in the US at the time, it too was placarded exp.

I jumped the 1st Bassler DC3 turbine conversion a week after it was finished...placarded exp. at the time.

WERE these aircraft actually exp. by the legal definition?
...i dunno, they WERE identified as such.


michaelmullins  (D 1643)

Dec 7, 2012, 10:20 PM
Post #14 of 26 (4179 views)
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Re: [quade] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Can you use an exerimental aircraft for a jump ship?
Experimental aircraft can't be used for hire...read into that what you will.
Angelic
In the US, you cannot jump out of an Experimental aircraft, period.
Mike Mullins

Can you cite the FAR on that?

ž 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificateŚ
(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued;

Each Experimental Aircraft has a certificate that lists the operating limitations. If the certificate does not list "intentional parachute jumping" then you cannot do it. Plus, every certificate I have seen specifically prohibits intentional parachute jumping. There may be some that don't, I just have not seen them. At any rate, it must be operated for the purpose for which the certificate was issued.

Mike Mullins


michaelmullins  (D 1643)

Dec 7, 2012, 10:24 PM
Post #15 of 26 (4172 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It was a two place Pitts but I remember seeing an experimental placard riveted in the cockpit


The air-van I jumped was experimental, it was serial 1 or 2, it was at Oshkosh and not US certified at the time.

The glider was a two place home-built, also placarded exp.

I jumped a Wilga not certified in the US at the time, it too was placarded exp.

I jumped the 1st Bassler DC3 turbine conversion a week after it was finished...placarded exp. at the time.

WERE these aircraft actually exp. by the legal definition?
...i dunno, they WERE identified as such.

Not saying you did not jump them, just saying it was not legal.

Mike


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 7, 2012, 10:31 PM
Post #16 of 26 (4156 views)
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Re: [michaelmullins] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
It was a two place Pitts but I remember seeing an experimental placard riveted in the cockpit


The air-van I jumped was experimental, it was serial 1 or 2, it was at Oshkosh and not US certified at the time.

The glider was a two place home-built, also placarded exp.

I jumped a Wilga not certified in the US at the time, it too was placarded exp.

I jumped the 1st Bassler DC3 turbine conversion a week after it was finished...placarded exp. at the time.

WERE these aircraft actually exp. by the legal definition?
...i dunno, they WERE identified as such.

Not saying you did not jump them, just saying it was not legal.

Mike

Well...the air van and DC3 had 1/2 a dozen feds crawling all over the paperwork, so I would imagine it was legal.

Both the jumpers & pilots had to sign that we were not being financially compensated...


michaelmullins  (D 1643)

Dec 7, 2012, 10:43 PM
Post #17 of 26 (4147 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
It was a two place Pitts but I remember seeing an experimental placard riveted in the cockpit


The air-van I jumped was experimental, it was serial 1 or 2, it was at Oshkosh and not US certified at the time.

The glider was a two place home-built, also placarded exp.

I jumped a Wilga not certified in the US at the time, it too was placarded exp.

I jumped the 1st Bassler DC3 turbine conversion a week after it was finished...placarded exp. at the time.

WERE these aircraft actually exp. by the legal definition?
...i dunno, they WERE identified as such.

Not saying you did not jump them, just saying it was not legal.

Mike

Well...the air van and DC3 had 1/2 a dozen feds crawling all over the paperwork, so I would imagine it was legal.

Both the jumpers & pilots had to sign that we were not being financially compensated...

The Feds can approve anything they wish. As the AirVan was in a non-standard category waiting to become a Certified aircraft and the DC-3 was in a non-standard category due to the Turbine conversion and was waiting to be re-certified, I can see where a Fed may approve a one time jump or series of jump for the purpose of allowing it to demonstrate that it would be capable of parachute jumping when the standard certificate is issued/re-issued. Basically, they made a provision in the operating limitations to allow it.

I doubt that they would ever approve an aircraft that is not on the way to certification.

As I posted elsewhere in this thread:

ž 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificateŚ
(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued;

Each Experimental Aircraft has a certificate that lists the operating limitations. If the certificate does not list "intentional parachute jumping" then you cannot do it. Plus, every certificate I have seen specifically prohibits intentional parachute jumping. There may be some that don't, I just have not seen them. At any rate, it must be operated for the purpose for which the certificate was issued.

Mike Mullins


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 7, 2012, 10:56 PM
Post #18 of 26 (4143 views)
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Re: [michaelmullins] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

I doubt that they would ever approve an aircraft that is not on the way to certification.

In reply to:

Gotcha...it's not a 'long term OK'. I can see that.


jclalor  (B 33202)

Dec 8, 2012, 12:58 AM
Post #19 of 26 (4094 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Quote:
That's what I was thinking Mike but I was too lazy to look it up. I've been through the conversation more than once trying to get a Huey for the boogie. Most of them are flying either in Restricted or Experimental Cats.

I made my first jump out of a Huey, I would pay highly to jump one again.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Dec 8, 2012, 10:41 AM
Post #20 of 26 (3915 views)
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Re: [mrpilotman] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Can you use an exerimental aircraft for a jump ship?
You can, and, I have.
Wink


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Dec 9, 2012, 10:16 AM
Post #21 of 26 (3688 views)
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Re: [michaelmullins] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Well...the air van and DC3 had 1/2 a dozen feds crawling all over the paperwork, so I would imagine it was legal.
Wouldn't be the first time a bunch of feds got it wrong, mis-interpretted a rule or forgot another one. . .

Just sayin' WinkSmile


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 9, 2012, 11:13 AM
Post #22 of 26 (3668 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Well...the air van and DC3 had 1/2 a dozen feds crawling all over the paperwork, so I would imagine it was legal.
Wouldn't be the first time a bunch of feds got it wrong, mis-interpretted a rule or forgot another one. . .

Just sayin' WinkSmile


Yeah but is does tend to cover the jumpers butt when the 'powers that be' say sure go for it! Wink


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Dec 9, 2012, 11:30 AM
Post #23 of 26 (3648 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yeah but is does tend to cover the jumpers butt when the 'powers that be' say sure go for it! Wink
Laugh No argument there. Smile


MikeJD  (D 10605)

Dec 10, 2012, 4:56 AM
Post #24 of 26 (3517 views)
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Re: [mrpilotman] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

My early student jumps were all made from an experimental Cessna 182.

As I recall they were using it to trial duct tape as a substitute for aluminium.


skycatcher68

Dec 11, 2012, 6:17 PM
Post #25 of 26 (3299 views)
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Re: [quade] experimental aircraft as jump ships? [In reply to] Can't Post

There are different types of experimental aircraft.

"Amateur-built" experimental aircraft are specifically prohibited from intentional parachute jumping by FAA Order 8130.2G - Experimental Amateur-Built Operating Limitations.

Quote:
(19) This aircraft must not be used for banner towing operations or intentional parachute jumping.


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