Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Not the typical "rig for a newbie" question (I think).

 


Deimian

Nov 30, 2012, 3:22 PM
Post #1 of 8 (2012 views)
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Not the typical "rig for a newbie" question (I think). Can't Post

I think this is not the typical "rig for a newbie" question. Going to the point: I would like to buy my first rig. I have 3 possible options:

-Buy an used complete system, with a 170 (I don't want to use a 170 already, but probably I'll change by the middle of next season)
-Buy a new Pilot ZPX 168 and try to find an used container according to that.
-Buy a new Pilot ZPX 168, and a new container according to that.

I doubt because:
-Usually people recommend that, if you buy something new, the first thing should be the rig.
-The combination of a Pilot 168 ZPX fitting in an used container made for a 150 canopy would allow me to downsize twice with the same container (money saving and avoiding of looking for change in a long time).
-Buying the canopy and the container new is quite expensive and I'm not sure it makes sense for a first rig.

What are your personal opinions on that? Is it worthwhile to aim for the "everything new" in the long term for a first rig? Would that save me money or pay off somehow? Should I look for an used complete system and forget about reusing the container as much as possible? Buying the canopy new, and looking for an used rig is a bad idea for some specific reason (comfort for instance)?

I guess the perfect thing would be to find a second hand Pilot 168 ZPX at a good price, and buy a new rig with that in mind. But it is quite difficult to find that canopy used. Moreover, the waiting time for some new rigs is just ridiculous (others are good, though). About the rig itself I think there are no major differences between the main brands, all of them make neat freefly friendly (that is what I like, but I am not there yet) rigs, and they have been making this for a long time already.

I know somethings are out of my league yet. Downsizing to sub 150 canopies, when I am jumping a 190 currently, or freeflying for instance. But I am thinking in the long term, not for something immediate. I still have to learn many things before getting there, I've just don't want to make big changes in my gear (and waste money) every time I progress a little bit. Since I don't see myself as a future hardcore swooper I think a rig able to hold 140-150-168ZPX will last me a very very long time.

Thank you for your opinions!


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Nov 30, 2012, 3:58 PM
Post #2 of 8 (1910 views)
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Re: [Deimian] Not the typical "rig for a newbie" question (I think). [In reply to] Can't Post

Buy a used container that holds a 190 main and a similarly sized reserve. Buy both of those used if you can. Don't buy for what you think you'll be ready for next year, buy what you're ready for right now.

Jump it happily till you're ready to move to a 170 main then downsize. If it fits a 190, it'll likely also hold a 170 just fine (especially if it's a regular Pilot 168, not a ZPX, besides, the regular Pilots should be more available on the used market).

Unless you're an outlier in terms of size (extremely tall or short), you should be able to find a used container that fits fine. If you buy anything at all new, buy your AAD new because that can be moved into your next container.

Let someone else take the depreciation on new gear. Jump used gear and spend more money on jumps and improving your skills. Learn everything you can about flying your 190; it'll make you a better pilot if/when you do decide to downsize.

Buy new gear (if you want) a few years from now when you're at a point where you can see staying on the same equipment for several years. Then you can really wring the value out of new stuff.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Nov 30, 2012, 5:10 PM
Post #3 of 8 (1846 views)
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Re: [Deimian] Not the typical "rig for a newbie" question (I think). [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think this is not the typical "rig for a newbie" question. Going to the point: I would like to buy my first rig. I have 3 possible options:

-Buy an used complete system, with a 170 (I don't want to use a 170 already, but probably I'll change by the middle of next season)
-Buy a new Pilot ZPX 168 and try to find an used container according to that.
-Buy a new Pilot ZPX 168, and a new container according to that.

Or

- Buy a used complete system, with a 190 that's safe for you to jump now.

Most containers with the closing loop on the wall separating the main/reserve compartment will have sufficient closing loop tension two sizes smaller which would let you use the rig down to a 150.

If you desire and are ready, sell the used 190 and get a used 170. Repeat if you want with a 150. If you do a good job shopping you should spend about $1 a jump on depreciation.

If you want to down size farther then you might consider a new rig that you'll be jumping indefinitely (135, 120, 105 conventional canopies; then smaller cross-braced designs that pack bigger) so the depreciation doesn't matter.

In reply to:
What are your personal opinions on that? Is it worthwhile to aim for the "everything new" in the long term for a first rig?

No.

In reply to:
Would that save me money or pay off somehow?

You'll look better on video with matching gear in your colors but will pay a few thousand dollars for the privilege.

In reply to:
Should I look for an used complete system and forget about reusing the container as much as possible?

Yes. Containers also appreciate about $1/jump. Do a reasonable job shopping and you'll be spending the same $2/jump on the combination regardless of how many times you sell and buy. Do a good job and you'll spend less or maybe make a little money.


In reply to:
Buying the canopy new, and looking for an used rig is a bad idea for some specific reason (comfort for instance)?

Yes. If you down-size you'll be competing with people selling canopies that fly as well but pack easier for $500+ less than you would with the street price - $1/jump formula. You'll take longer to sell or cut your price hundreds of dollars .


Iago  (D License)

Nov 30, 2012, 5:32 PM
Post #4 of 8 (1832 views)
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Re: [Deimian] Not the typical "rig for a newbie" question (I think). [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think this is not the typical "rig for a newbie" question. Going to the point: I would like to buy my first rig. I have 3 possible options:

-Buy an used complete system, with a 170 (I don't want to use a 170 already, but probably I'll change by the middle of next season)
-Buy a new Pilot ZPX 168 and try to find an used container according to that.
-Buy a new Pilot ZPX 168, and a new container according to that.

I doubt because:
-Usually people recommend that, if you buy something new, the first thing should be the rig.
-The combination of a Pilot 168 ZPX fitting in an used container made for a 150 canopy would allow me to downsize twice with the same container (money saving and avoiding of looking for change in a long time).
-Buying the canopy and the container new is quite expensive and I'm not sure it makes sense for a first rig.

What are your personal opinions on that? Is it worthwhile to aim for the "everything new" in the long term for a first rig? Would that save me money or pay off somehow? Should I look for an used complete system and forget about reusing the container as much as possible? Buying the canopy new, and looking for an used rig is a bad idea for some specific reason (comfort for instance)?

I guess the perfect thing would be to find a second hand Pilot 168 ZPX at a good price, and buy a new rig with that in mind. But it is quite difficult to find that canopy used. Moreover, the waiting time for some new rigs is just ridiculous (others are good, though). About the rig itself I think there are no major differences between the main brands, all of them make neat freefly friendly (that is what I like, but I am not there yet) rigs, and they have been making this for a long time already.

I know somethings are out of my league yet. Downsizing to sub 150 canopies, when I am jumping a 190 currently, or freeflying for instance. But I am thinking in the long term, not for something immediate. I still have to learn many things before getting there, I've just don't want to make big changes in my gear (and waste money) every time I progress a little bit. Since I don't see myself as a future hardcore swooper I think a rig able to hold 140-150-168ZPX will last me a very very long time.

Thank you for your opinions!

I'd ask around the DZ and find someone with a 190 willing to loan it for fifty jumps or so. It's not uncommon stateside for old timers to have gear lying around in a closet that they'll loan out, give, or sell for a few cases of beer. After that I'd probably buy the complete used 170 setup and keep the main for later.


Maksimsf  (B 37743)

Nov 30, 2012, 7:28 PM
Post #5 of 8 (1777 views)
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Re: [Deimian] Not the typical "rig for a newbie" question (I think). [In reply to] Can't Post

I would invest money in new H/C and reserve and get a used main. Keep in mind - that if you will have to chop there is a possibility not to recover your main and at the same time new reserve will give you more piece of mind when you have to chop :) Also container that fits well is a big deal. I recently demoed used nice rig with ~50 jumps, but when it was time to pull - I couldn't rich my hackey - second attempt - barely made it out. I did practice on the ground - no problem, but when you on the ground your container may sits lower then in freefall. It's not that hard to find a 170-200sqf used main.


(This post was edited by Maksimsf on Nov 30, 2012, 7:35 PM)


Deimian

Dec 1, 2012, 1:02 AM
Post #6 of 8 (1701 views)
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Re: [Deimian] Not the typical "rig for a newbie" question (I think). [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you all for your answers! Just to clarify, I've asked to start making up my mind, not for immediate shopping. I wanted to spend a few tens of jumps more on rental gear (190), then ask around if the local experts think I am ready to change to a 170, and when the moment arrives have a complete system either at home already, or on its way. And those few tens of jumps are months away, the season here is over, so I'll have to wait.

Thank you again!


councilman24  (D 8631)

Dec 1, 2012, 9:57 AM
Post #7 of 8 (1581 views)
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Re: [Deimian] Not the typical "rig for a newbie" question (I think). [In reply to] Can't Post

It may take you all winter to find a complete rig or to piece a rig together. IIRC Germany has a mandatory maximum life on gear? The used gear available may be less and it may take awhile to find something. And depending on what rental is in Germany you may be better off getting your own to resell. 40 jumps at $25 in the U.S. is $1000. The price of an older used container

First I wouldn't take gear advice from someone with 60 jumps. We used to have those folks around the dropzone and had to correct all the wrong information they gave students.Mad

You can get a used H/C that will hold a 190 on the full side and a 170 just about right. IF you have a lot of gear available either in Germany/Europe or willing to purchase from here you can put a rig together. Harness containers tend to take a fair amount of abuse from newbies. If I bought anything new it would be a reserve and AAD. The reserve should be fit to your size, and then the container fit to the reserve. The AAD can move to your next container or be sold for the appropriate price. After your done with the 190/170 or decide to stay with a 170 but get custom gear you can either sell the reserve with the rig or move it to your new container. When you go to a 170 where you might stay for awhile you could buy that new custom. Then buy a new container when able /available.

If you decide to downsize drastically you may have to compromise on the reserve size. You may not be able to fit a large enough reserve in a rig that would hold a little hot rod swoop canopy. What this usually means is if you land unconscious under this small reserve you may not survive.

So buy a reserve that is appropriate for your size AND will work in a container that holds a 170 comfortably and a 190 full. Buy an AAD. Buy a used container (a container/reserve combination or even a complete 190 rig may be easier to find) Buy a well used 190 ZP canopy. When ready sell the 190 and buy a newer or new 170. Used if your headed smaller before 500 jumps.

When I was at an active but smaller dropzone we had a lot of rigs that got sold from newbie to the next newbie. Some went through four or five owners before they either became to old or to obsolete.


(This post was edited by councilman24 on Dec 1, 2012, 10:00 AM)


EOCS  (C License)

Dec 5, 2012, 12:58 AM
Post #8 of 8 (1214 views)
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Re: [Deimian] Not the typical "rig for a newbie" question (I think). [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think this is not the typical "rig for a newbie" question. Going to the point: I would like to buy my first rig. I have 3 possible options:

-Buy an used complete system, with a 170 (I don't want to use a 170 already, but probably I'll change by the middle of next season)
-Buy a new Pilot ZPX 168 and try to find an used container according to that.
-Buy a new Pilot ZPX 168, and a new container according to that.

I doubt because:
-Usually people recommend that, if you buy something new, the first thing should be the rig.
-The combination of a Pilot 168 ZPX fitting in an used container made for a 150 canopy would allow me to downsize twice with the same container (money saving and avoiding of looking for change in a long time).
-Buying the canopy and the container new is quite expensive and I'm not sure it makes sense for a first rig.

What are your personal opinions on that? Is it worthwhile to aim for the "everything new" in the long term for a first rig? Would that save me money or pay off somehow? Should I look for an used complete system and forget about reusing the container as much as possible? Buying the canopy new, and looking for an used rig is a bad idea for some specific reason (comfort for instance)?

I guess the perfect thing would be to find a second hand Pilot 168 ZPX at a good price, and buy a new rig with that in mind. But it is quite difficult to find that canopy used. Moreover, the waiting time for some new rigs is just ridiculous (others are good, though). About the rig itself I think there are no major differences between the main brands, all of them make neat freefly friendly (that is what I like, but I am not there yet) rigs, and they have been making this for a long time already.

I know somethings are out of my league yet. Downsizing to sub 150 canopies, when I am jumping a 190 currently, or freeflying for instance. But I am thinking in the long term, not for something immediate. I still have to learn many things before getting there, I've just don't want to make big changes in my gear (and waste money) every time I progress a little bit. Since I don't see myself as a future hardcore swooper I think a rig able to hold 140-150-168ZPX will last me a very very long time.

Thank you for your opinions!

I'm just gonna throw this out there.....

you say you will be jumping rental rigs until you are ready for a 170 and want to get something that will fit you for longer? makes sense imo.

Buy a new container (and reserve) fitted for you that is made for a 135-150 and put a PD pulse 170 into it. (not sure if pilot ZPX would pack that small aswell?)

Pilot seems to fly similar to a pulse with a flat glide and good openings but it packs quite a bit smaller.
I did exactly the above with a used wings container that was made for a 135-150 and it worked very well. The pulse 170 totally fit without being too big and was really easy to pack even brand new. I sold my 170 and after some 150 jumps i now have a non- ZPX Pilot 132 in that same container and it fits perfectly.

WARNING: Some may say i have downsized too quick and thats fine but thats not the point of my post. the point is that you can get a new container that will fit what you can fly today and for a really long time if you choose the canopies correctly.



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