Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
use of booties for breakoff safety?

 

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mixedup  (D License)

Nov 22, 2012, 10:22 PM
Post #1 of 29 (4191 views)
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use of booties for breakoff safety? Can't Post

In terms of a jump with say 8-way to 16-way in terms of numbers, what is the feeling re whether booties/boosters would be slightly better for safety at breakoff? Just wondering if you're on the outer ring and turn and track away without boosters, then there are some people in the base who turn and track with boosters they might be more inclined to go faster and catch up.

I'm assuming the primary answer is it shouldn't make a difference as you're looking out for each other and making sure you're not tracking off in the same direction as another jumper. But still wondering from a secondary consideration point of view. (background is I prefer to jump without booties/boosters, but was just pondering whether I should consider using them for a tiny bit more safety at breakoff)


potatoman  (Student)

Nov 22, 2012, 10:58 PM
Post #2 of 29 (4101 views)
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Re: [mixedup] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

Pow, C lic on 101 jumps?
Hope it is not in flat flying....

Anyways, youtube the 16 ways. There is "normally" sequential breakoff. As for booties/boosters, they all have them. The key is to control your speed. So, the guys outer would bullet away, where the guys on the inside, would probably only turn and track a tad later than them, allowing more seperation, and also, they would not "bullet" out.


sundevil777  (D License)

Nov 23, 2012, 4:54 AM
Post #3 of 29 (4044 views)
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Re: [mixedup] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I prefer to jump without booties

Why?

In reply to:
what is the feeling re whether booties/boosters would be slightly better

Yes, that is why almost everyone uses them.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Nov 23, 2012, 6:17 AM
Post #4 of 29 (3996 views)
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Re: [mixedup] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

Overtaking on breakoff can happen even if everyone on the jump is (or isn't) wearing booties. That's why the bigger the jump gets, the more important it becomes not for each individual to track as fast and far as they can, but to track the appropriate speed , angle, and distance specified in the breakoff plan (often through use of tracking groups, the mechanics of which the organizer should spend lots of time on).

For the group sizes you're talking about, however, there should be adequate space for everyone to track off on separate radials from the center and get adequate separation, so long as breakoff is high enough and everyone stays on their line. Unless people are drifting off their own line, overtaking shouldn't be a concern. If people can't stay on their line long enough to get safe separation, they may not be ready for a jump of that size.


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Nov 23, 2012, 8:43 AM)


CarpeDiem3  (D License)

Nov 23, 2012, 8:00 AM
Post #5 of 29 (3924 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I prefer to jump without booties

Why?

Why not? Skydivers did it for decades before they were invented, without any problems.

They're a lot of hassle. They make running out a landing difficult because they restrict foot movement. The bottoms wear out bringing a premature end to the life of the jumpsuit. And they make some people think that anyone without them is a incompetent or dangerous skydiver.


(This post was edited by CarpeDiem3 on Nov 23, 2012, 8:03 AM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Nov 23, 2012, 8:18 AM
Post #6 of 29 (3909 views)
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Re: [CarpeDiem3] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I prefer to jump without booties

Why?

Why not? Skydivers did it for decades before they were invented, without any problems.

They're a lot of hassle. They make running out a landing difficult because they restrict foot movement. The bottoms wear out bringing a premature end to the life of the jumpsuit. And they make some people think that anyone without them is a incompetent or dangerous skydiver.

I jumped for 23 years without booties. When I did get them, I realized how they are very helpful. I do not suffer from any of the negatives that you've mentioned.


jsaxton  (D 26818)

Nov 23, 2012, 8:40 AM
Post #7 of 29 (3890 views)
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Re: [mixedup] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm just another asshole on the internet, but, I've been on a _few_ hundred ways so maybe I'm qualified to answer this one Cool

If you are relying on booties for safe break off you have much bigger issues.

Concentrate on turning 180 from the center, grabbing air and flat tracking in a straight line all the way to deployment altitude while remaining aware of where everyone else around you is. And one other thing, don't pay any attention to anyone who suggests doing a barrel roll.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 23, 2012, 12:42 PM
Post #8 of 29 (3827 views)
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Re: [mixedup] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

>what is the feeling re whether booties/boosters would be slightly better for safety at breakoff?

Booties help most people track, and thus in some cases, where distance is needed, booties can help with breakoff. However, _any_ group can break off safely, booties or not, provided attention is paid to breakoff altitudes, distances, deployment altitude, headings etc.

To put it another way, you can break off a 100 way safely with or without booties. But the without-booties 100 way will have to break off a bit higher.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 23, 2012, 3:31 PM
Post #9 of 29 (3758 views)
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Re: [mixedup] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have never experienced any of the problems that Carp described. I did spin myself silly the first time I tried a turn with them though.
LaughLaugh

You have all the right answers to your question.

I would like to emphasize the importance of tracking a straight line. On the size jumps you mention, there should be no reason for anyone to be in another's line. If there is, somebody screwed to pooch. Please note that does NOT relieve you of the necessity and responsibility of keeping your eyes looking out for others.


mixedup  (D License)

Nov 24, 2012, 2:49 AM
Post #10 of 29 (3670 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for all the answers/advice guys


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Nov 24, 2012, 9:12 AM
Post #11 of 29 (3611 views)
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Re: [mixedup] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks for all the answers/advice guys

Outlaw Booties now!!!Wink


Krip  (Student)

Nov 24, 2012, 11:07 AM
Post #12 of 29 (3592 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Thanks for all the answers/advice guys

Outlaw Booties now!!!Wink


But but they look Cool, and everyone is wearing themWinkLaugh


jakee  (C License)

Nov 24, 2012, 12:17 PM
Post #13 of 29 (3563 views)
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Re: [CarpeDiem3] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Skydivers did it for decades before they were invented, without any problems.

There's a whole load of stuff that skydivers used for decades that you wouldn't want to go back to. Not because they caused problems, but because the new stuff works better.

In reply to:
They make running out a landing difficult because they restrict foot movement.

Not if they fit properly.

In reply to:
The bottoms wear out bringing a premature end to the life of the jumpsuit.

A) Shoe Goo.

B) Mend itWink


DvK  (B License)

Nov 24, 2012, 12:56 PM
Post #14 of 29 (3555 views)
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Re: [jsaxton] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm just another asshole on the internet, but, I've been on a _few_ hundred ways so maybe I'm qualified to answer this one Cool

If you are relying on booties for safe break off you have much bigger issues.

Concentrate on turning 180 from the center, grabbing air and flat tracking in a straight line all the way to deployment altitude while remaining aware of where everyone else around you is. And one other thing, don't pay any attention to anyone who suggests doing a barrel roll.

Maybe going a bit off topic here, but would you have the same opinion concerning separation during freefly jumps?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 24, 2012, 1:04 PM
Post #15 of 29 (3547 views)
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Re: [DvK] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

We don't need no stinkin' freeflyers.
LaughLaughTongue


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Nov 24, 2012, 1:17 PM
Post #16 of 29 (3541 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We don't need no stinkin' freeflyers.
LaughLaughTongue

Freeflyers wearing .... booties? I think you're on to something here. The next Cool thing out there. I'm thinking of getting a new jumpsuit for RW. I've not needed booties and am comfortable not having them. But, the masses now jump booties. Tracking and seperation seem to be one area of advantage??

Wink


(This post was edited by skyjumpenfool on Nov 24, 2012, 1:23 PM)


jsaxton  (D 26818)

Nov 24, 2012, 2:49 PM
Post #17 of 29 (3509 views)
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Re: [DvK] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm just another asshole on the internet, but, I've been on a _few_ hundred ways so maybe I'm qualified to answer this one Cool

If you are relying on booties for safe break off you have much bigger issues.

Concentrate on turning 180 from the center, grabbing air and flat tracking in a straight line all the way to deployment altitude while remaining aware of where everyone else around you is. And one other thing, don't pay any attention to anyone who suggests doing a barrel roll.

Maybe going a bit off topic here, but would you have the same opinion concerning separation during freefly jumps?

Not that I'm a badass freeflyer but on all the freefly jumps I've done the protocol was to backtrack away for a couple of seconds, switch to belly and track as normal, no barrel roll before deployment.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Nov 25, 2012, 5:07 PM
Post #18 of 29 (3335 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
We don't need no stinkin' freeflyers.
LaughLaughTongue

Freeflyers wearing .... booties? I think you're on to something here. The next Cool thing out there. I'm thinking of getting a new jumpsuit for RW. I've not needed booties and am comfortable not having them. But, the masses now jump booties. Tracking and seperation seem to be one area of advantage??

Wink
Tracking is only a small part of it. Faster turns, quicker swoops and faster stops, even a lot more range of speed in freefall.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 25, 2012, 5:26 PM
Post #19 of 29 (3323 views)
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Re: [ufk22] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Tracking is only a small part of it. Faster turns, quicker swoops and faster stops, even a lot more range of speed in freefall.

This^^^

You caught what the rest of us failed to point out...thanks.


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Nov 25, 2012, 9:47 PM
Post #20 of 29 (3257 views)
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Re: [jsaxton] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And one other thing, don't pay any attention to anyone who suggests doing a barrel roll.

Hmmmmm.... I remember a day back in byron where you recommended to a newer jumper that he should track off on his back so he could see everybody.

Glad to see those bad habits didn't stick around :P


danornan  (D 11308)

Nov 26, 2012, 5:24 AM
Post #21 of 29 (3148 views)
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Re: [mixedup] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

It is "Relative" work, all the way down to the ground. Booties should not make a difference on an 8-way or 16-way.


jsaxton  (D 26818)

Nov 26, 2012, 6:56 AM
Post #22 of 29 (3118 views)
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Re: [jtiflyer] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

We all learn (hopefully) I remember people telling me to use the 45 degree rule for seperation around that time too.

In reply to:
In reply to:
And one other thing, don't pay any attention to anyone who suggests doing a barrel roll.

Hmmmmm.... I remember a day back in byron where you recommended to a newer jumper that he should track off on his back so he could see everybody.

Glad to see those bad habits didn't stick around :P


Ron

Nov 26, 2012, 8:02 AM
Post #23 of 29 (3080 views)
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Re: [CarpeDiem3] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
They're a lot of hassle.

So is wearing a helmet. IMO, the hassle of both is worth it.

Quote:
They make running out a landing difficult because they restrict foot movement.

6k jumps and never had that problem. Of course at 1k jumps I started to take them off before landing.

Quote:
The bottoms wear out bringing a premature end to the life of the jumpsuit.

1. Shoe goo
2. Take them off after opening
3. Hand them and 20 bucks to a rigger.


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 26, 2012, 9:20 AM
Post #24 of 29 (3047 views)
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Re: [danornan] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It is "Relative" work, all the way down to the ground. Booties should not make a difference on an 8-way or 16-way.

First time I ever wore booties (a long time ago now) was on an 12-way with a star as the first point. I extended my legs to drive in to dock, and shot almost across to the other side. While they should not make a difference, you have to be aware of the extra power they give to your leg movements.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Nov 26, 2012, 9:27 AM
Post #25 of 29 (3042 views)
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Re: [] use of booties for breakoff safety? [In reply to] Can't Post

Booties do make a difference, they are designed to make a difference. Anyone serious about RW should get them and learn to use them correctly.

Anyone that doesn't have them is exercising a reasonable choice and that's fine. But they are completely incorrect in minimizing their effectiveness, badmouthing the feature or trying to rationalize silly excuses for not having them. "I just don't want them" is a perfectly good reason and doesn't need any further justification.


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