Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Canopy climbs after 270

 

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castrodavidd  (C 33299)

Nov 18, 2012, 10:28 AM
Post #1 of 45 (6017 views)
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Canopy climbs after 270 Can't Post

I have about 125 jumps on a crossfire 2 169, loaded 1.55/1. 100 of those are riser approaches. The last 50 have been 270's. I have been working on increasing my turn and dive times to increase my speed. Over the last ten jumps the canopy has been climbing half way through the swoop, about ten feet. I have attributed this in the past to twisted steering lines, but last jump I made sure they were untwisted before packing. I have tried keeping my hands on the dive loops, and even tried adding a little pressure when it starts to climb. My biggest concern is that when it gets to the top of the climb it's almost stalled, and starts descending almost vertically with little pressure left for the flare. Anny suggestions?


trigger  (D 101390)

Nov 18, 2012, 12:07 PM
Post #2 of 45 (5903 views)
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Re: [castrodavidd] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

Have a rigger measure the brake lines esp the lowers as i suspect your brake line are too short.
Have you noticed any tail flutter at all in the dive, another indication that the brakes are set too short.
Have someone video your approach and landing and interrogate to see if the canopy tail is bucking.
Another check you can do at altitude at full flight with the toggles all the way up, look up at the brake lines is there a healthy bow or are they taut.
Note:If they are too short you will have to go back and redial your approaches.


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 18, 2012, 12:11 PM
Post #3 of 45 (5898 views)
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Re: [trigger] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

Not just the brake lines, but the check the whole canopy trim.

When you get video, see if your PC isn't slightly inflated and also watch your start/dive/release. If it isn't smooth, you're creating problems.

On a canopy like a Stiletto, it doesn't take as much to max out the dive and "turtle" back up into the air. On something like a XF2 it is harder. On pro-class canopies we really haven't seen the true "maxed out" potential yet.


SRI85  (D License)

Nov 18, 2012, 12:19 PM
Post #4 of 45 (5888 views)
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Re: [castrodavidd] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a normal attribute for that canopy at that light of a wing loading. It's the reason I switched to Katana. You have to be low on the crossfire to get a good swoop out of it ( at that loading)

Comparing swoop videos from the 2, the crossfire always looks scary and dirty low. (For the good swoops)


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 18, 2012, 12:35 PM
Post #5 of 45 (5874 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You have to be low on the crossfire to get a good swoop out of it ( at that loading)

I don't agree with that statement at all.

In the 1.5 range it will perform well, you can get good, smooth swoops out of it, of course you'll feel like when you jump a smaller one loaded in the 1.7-1.9 range that it's "better" but that has more to do with you having more jumps, having less drag and the ability to generate more speed.


SRI85  (D License)

Nov 18, 2012, 1:55 PM
Post #6 of 45 (5827 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

I got plenty of good swoops out of my crossfire loaded at 1.5.

I consider it low when you compare it to the recovery arc to the Katana, because the crossfire planes out pretty quick.


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 18, 2012, 2:04 PM
Post #7 of 45 (5818 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I consider it low when you compare it to the recovery arc to the Katana, because the crossfire planes out pretty quick.

When you say you have to turn it low, it makes it sound like you have to put it in the corner. That is what I was disagreeing with.

The same size/wingloading Katana vs XF2 I had to turn 75ft higher on the Katana. It isn't low or high, the two canopies just have different flight and recovery characteristics.


SRI85  (D License)

Nov 18, 2012, 2:18 PM
Post #8 of 45 (5809 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess "in the corner" is relative. I felt like i had to put it there for best results. And im pretty sure thats why GW told me to get a Katana.

http://www.youtube.com/...x=4&feature=plcp

I had to bump up my turn 230ft when switching from crossfire2 99 to katana 97.

Crossfires can be swooped and swooped well, but in the end i regret spending time on that canopy and wish i had started with a Katana.


castrodavidd  (C 33299)

Nov 18, 2012, 3:24 PM
Post #9 of 45 (5776 views)
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Re: [castrodavidd] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

After checking the line trims, the brakes were set 2cm short of the factory setting. I lengthen them by that, will see how it does.


IMGR2  (D 21089)

Nov 18, 2012, 3:41 PM
Post #10 of 45 (5769 views)
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Re: [castrodavidd] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

Never count out the fact that seeing as though you found a discrepancy with your brake lines that there may be a discrepancy with the suspension lines.

I have more than my fair share of jumps on many prototype canopies when we were doing tests on line trims.
I actually had canopies climb on the back end of the swoop. Had one take me almost 30 feet back up in the air once. Very scary!


buyaka96  (C 38673)

Nov 18, 2012, 6:20 PM
Post #11 of 45 (5725 views)
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Re: [castrodavidd] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

I usually don't like replying on DZ but I thought i might this time since it's also happened to me. I was loaded at 1.4 on a on a new XF 149. My canopy would also pop up on me by over 20 feet at times. The lines were all still in trim after 100 jumps from when i started doing 90s and 270s. I got aggravated about popping up and even GW couldn't explain why it was happening. After some asking, some of us came to the conclusion that it was mainly due to size of the parachute and the current wing loading. Because recovery arc placed a huge role, the efficiency of wing at light loading became even bigger being that it's still a closed nose design and it's flatter glide made it recovery that much faster. It wasn't until I wingloaded similar canopies at above 1.8 that I noticed it would stop "popping up" on the bottom end of the arc that the less parasitic drag of the chute would keep it in more of a dive. I think this makes sense.... but who knows.


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Nov 19, 2012, 8:14 AM
Post #12 of 45 (5568 views)
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Re: [buyaka96] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I usually don't like replying on DZ but I thought i might this time since it's also happened to me. I was loaded at 1.4 on a on a new XF 149. My canopy would also pop up on me by over 20 feet at times. The lines were all still in trim after 100 jumps from when i started doing 90s and 270s. I got aggravated about popping up and even GW couldn't explain why it was happening. After some asking, some of us came to the conclusion that it was mainly due to size of the parachute and the current wing loading. Because recovery arc placed a huge role, the efficiency of wing at light loading became even bigger being that it's still a closed nose design and it's flatter glide made it recovery that much faster. It wasn't until I wingloaded similar canopies at above 1.8 that I noticed it would stop "popping up" on the bottom end of the arc that the less parasitic drag of the chute would keep it in more of a dive. I think this makes sense.... but who knows.

DING DING DING We have a winner. I was thinking the same thing. I've seen it a bit on xf2's lightly loaded esp. once the turn increases.


dharma1976  (D 28634)

Nov 19, 2012, 9:01 AM
Post #13 of 45 (5542 views)
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Re: [dqpacker] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

one thing that will help with this issue is flying the front risers out instead of just releasing them, dependent of course on how deep you get them... I have jump XFire2s at 1.4-2.0 wingloads.




BMFin

Nov 19, 2012, 6:08 PM
Post #15 of 45 (5327 views)
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Re: [dharma1976] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
one thing that will help with this issue is flying the front risers out instead of just releasing them, dependent of course on how deep you get them... I have jump XFire2s at 1.4-2.0 wingloads.

Im not sure if I would agree. My experience is that if you do a 270 with at least a medium time rotation with an XF2, the canopy will start planing out by itself even if you would be putting you total body weight to the front risers. Therefore it wouldnt make any difference to let them go fast or low, since the only thing you are doing anyways is chin-ups, from the risers. The risers would be already extended to their full lenght anyway at this point. Therefore there is no loose front riser to release.

I jump an XF2 @ 2.0, but I have never thought that a lightly loaded one would pop up, after an efficient rotation, but I would guess it could happen. The XF2 has quite flat trim and short recovery arc for sure.

I would really wish to see a video of this pop up, since I have a hard time believing it could happen. IMO the swoop would need to be in corner for this to happen even in theory, but I could be wrong..


SRI85  (D License)

Nov 19, 2012, 7:08 PM
Post #16 of 45 (5291 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

Usually it happens when your slightly high on the bottom end of your swoop. Or atleast i think thats how i remember it.

i did find one video of it happening, though i had a bunch i deleted. Only happened twice to me on this day.

the jolt you see is me releasing the fronts.

http://www.youtube.com/...amp;feature=youtu.be


BMFin

Nov 19, 2012, 7:44 PM
Post #17 of 45 (5281 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

ok, well you werent in the corner there at least. The 270 looks smooth and efficient.

The one thing that remains unseen from the video is if there is any brake input as you let go of your fronts?


(This post was edited by BMFin on Nov 19, 2012, 7:44 PM)


SRI85  (D License)

Nov 20, 2012, 5:57 AM
Post #18 of 45 (5175 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
ok, well you werent in the corner there at least. The 270 looks smooth and efficient.

The one thing that remains unseen from the video is if there is any brake input as you let go of your fronts?

Nope, i originally thought that is what it had to be, but it happened enough times and i asked people watching me what they saw.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 20, 2012, 6:01 AM
Post #19 of 45 (5173 views)
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Re: [castrodavidd] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Speed equals lift. Get enough of one, and you'll have too much of the other. Wingloading is a factor, less weight requires less lift to result in a climb.




phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Nov 20, 2012, 10:34 AM
Post #21 of 45 (5078 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

6 to 12 months is not a short recovery. Tongue


RichLees

Nov 20, 2012, 1:21 PM
Post #22 of 45 (5027 views)
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Re: [SRI85] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

scenario: pop-up due to change of angle of incidence as pilot overtakes the wing. easier on "short" recovery canopies than dive-monsters.

my hypothesis -
dump the front risers and the canopy pitches up, catching more drag and going back relative to pilot. this means the incidence has changed so the lift changes. with enough drag (eg brakes) or change in incidence, you pop back up.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Nov 20, 2012, 3:50 PM
Post #23 of 45 (4969 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
You have to be low on the crossfire to get a good swoop out of it ( at that loading)

I don't agree with that statement at all.

In the 1.5 range it will perform well, you can get good, smooth swoops out of it, of course you'll feel like when you jump a smaller one loaded in the 1.7-1.9 range that it's "better" but that has more to do with you having more jumps, having less drag and the ability to generate more speed.

I agree with Dave. Sure, if you bang a quick, shitty turn then your turn is going to be much lower than under a crossbraced canopy, but there is simply no reason to be banging quick, shitty turns is there?

BTW: when you could still be competitive under nine-cells in the PRO category of the PPPB and, later, PST, we were throwing 270's as high as 800 feet under our Cobalts. Check the old records and see how me, Butts, and Harrell did back in the stone age against early FX's, VX's, and Velos.

Chuck




castrodavidd  (C 33299)

Nov 20, 2012, 8:56 PM
Post #25 of 45 (4882 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Canopy climbs after 270 [In reply to] Can't Post

Because I have yet to find anyone who will sell me a Petra 169


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