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Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy?

 


Poll: Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy?
Angel Fire 19 / 31%
PD-R 43 / 69%
62 total votes
 
Maksimsf  (B 37743)

Nov 14, 2012, 9:15 PM
Post #1 of 21 (3235 views)
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Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy? Can't Post

PD-R is only $50 more, which one would you buy and why?

I was considering Smart before, but 250 sqf is the maximum they have and I'm looking for 280+, sems like Smart,AG,PD-R cost pretty much the same now ($1080,$1100,$1150 (dealer price))


(This post was edited by Maksimsf on Nov 14, 2012, 9:34 PM)


ctrph8  (D License)

Nov 14, 2012, 11:54 PM
Post #2 of 21 (3127 views)
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Re: [Maksimsf] Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Neither. Right now I'm very impressed with the PD Optimum. It is more money but they are supposed to fly more like modern parachutes than traditional 7 cell F-111 parachutes. They also pack smaller. I went from a PD-160R to an Optimum 160. I'm selling off my other reserves to buy another one.

That being said, I don't have any experience with an AngelFire reserve. Jumpshack has a reputation for quality products and for doing things right... except their website which is stuck in the 90's. PD has made thousands and thousands of reserves that have been time tested. You would get a safe and durable product from either company. You would probably get a better product in terms of flight characteristics with an Optimum.


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 15, 2012, 3:31 AM
Post #3 of 21 (3059 views)
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Re: [ctrph8] Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy? [In reply to] Can't Post

they are supposed to fly more like modern parachutes than traditional 7 cell F-111 parachutes.

In reply to:


Reading the incident reports, aren't 'modern parachutes' a little gamey to land at times? I'll stick with tradition thanks anyway. Wink


DocPop  (C License)

Nov 15, 2012, 4:01 AM
Post #4 of 21 (3048 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not if they are sized correctly for the individual. And it's not like the Optimum is an aggressive elliptical.

Would you agree that the flare is more powerful on modern canopies than those of yesteryear, particularly when the loading exceeds 1:1?


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 15, 2012, 4:12 AM
Post #5 of 21 (3044 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not if they are sized correctly for the individual. And it's not like the Optimum is an aggressive elliptical.

Would you agree that the flare is more powerful on modern canopies than those of yesteryear, particularly when the loading exceeds 1:1?

Well I'm no hot shot full of myself canopy pilot god...but I never had a problem flaring a f1 11 seven cell. Yup flares different...so what?

Would you agree that HAVING to have full use of you arms and being conscious to survive under a reserve is a pretty fuckin dumb choice?


theonlyski  (D License)

Nov 15, 2012, 6:07 AM
Post #6 of 21 (2981 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
they are supposed to fly more like modern parachutes than traditional 7 cell F-111 parachutes.

In reply to:


Reading the incident reports, aren't 'modern parachutes' a little gamey to land at times? I'll stick with tradition thanks anyway. Wink

So how's that 26' LoPo doing these days? Tongue


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Nov 15, 2012, 7:10 AM
Post #7 of 21 (2943 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
they are supposed to fly more like modern parachutes than traditional 7 cell F-111 parachutes.

In reply to:


Reading the incident reports, aren't 'modern parachutes' a little gamey to land at times? I'll stick with tradition thanks anyway. Wink
I test jumped an Optimum 126 lat year and was very impressed. I was a bit dubious about getting such a small reserve but was downsizing to a 105 main and just couldn't be comfortable mixing that with my 150 reserve. The flight characteristics and flare of the Optimum were brilliant.


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 15, 2012, 8:15 AM
Post #8 of 21 (2899 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
they are supposed to fly more like modern parachutes than traditional 7 cell F-111 parachutes.

In reply to:


Reading the incident reports, aren't 'modern parachutes' a little gamey to land at times? I'll stick with tradition thanks anyway. Wink
I test jumped an Optimum 126 lat year and was very impressed. I was a bit dubious about getting such a small reserve but was downsizing to a 105 main and just couldn't be comfortable mixing that with my 150 reserve. The flight characteristics and flare of the Optimum were brilliant.


My concern is with the unexpected...I personally witnessed two instances in the past year where a reserve landing without flaring at all was necessitated by injury.

One hard opening that blew several lines - not only dazed & disoriented the jumper but it also severely dislocated his shoulder.

He managed a cut-away with the 'good' arm and the RSL deployed the reserve.

NO WAY could he flare, or even release the brakes.

He landed in a parking lot going into shock from the ordeal in the air. Skinned up his knees & nose from the landing but, had the reserve been loaded higher the outcome would undoubtedly been much worse.

If you have a AAD, isn't part of the reason 'in case' you get knocked out or injured and can't pull?

If you can't survive a downwind no flare reserve landing with what's on your back, you just may end up paying a pretty severe penalty.

For some it may be worth it - for me it's not.

Size, weight, cool factor...whatever, it doesn't matter when you're down to your last bullet. Ya don't make it count, you may not need to worry about it again.

The reserve I jump I test jumped as a main 3 times prior to purchase. On the last jump I pointed it at the DZ and let her fly. I did chicken out at the last second and pop the rears a bit, but I could easily have PLF'd the landing without injury. SOLD! Wink


tbrown  (D 6533)

Nov 15, 2012, 8:20 PM
Post #9 of 21 (2686 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
they are supposed to fly more like modern parachutes than traditional 7 cell F-111 parachutes.

In reply to:


Reading the incident reports, aren't 'modern parachutes' a little gamey to land at times? I'll stick with tradition thanks anyway. Wink

Numero Uno, no disrespect intended to the Angel Fire. Agreed that Jump Shack has always built quality products, and a good friend of mine recently bought a Racer with an Angel Fire.

I have an Optimum in my newest rig and have made a demo jump on one (a 176, loaded at about 1.3:1). I found it a bit sporty to fly and it had a definite stall point. But the landing was absolutely the softest and easiest landing I've EVER had. I started laughing halfway thru the flare and couldn't stop for 5 minutes. I simply could not believe how easy it was to land !


floormonkey  (D License)

Nov 16, 2012, 8:49 AM
Post #10 of 21 (2590 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Can't speak to the angelfire, never flown one or seen one.

I've jumped (after cutaway) and demo'd both the PDR143 and OP 143, as well as demo'd the PDR126 OP 126. I also demo the OP 143 (or whatever reserve I own) at least once a year. I've packed both many times, as well as numerous others.

The OP143 hits the sweet spot for comfortably survivable for me, at 1.4:1. The OP 126 @ 1.6:1 did not seem to be comfortably survivable with one toggle popped, all weight on one side of harness (to simulate unconsciousness) for me. The PDR 143 also has the same feeling of comfortable survivability.

The OP143 has a stronger flare, as well as flies "better" (take that how you want). I felt the OP143 could be easily landed at 1.4:1 as a PLF only. I felt the OP126 could have also been landed with a PLF only without injury, but I preferred the 143 in worst case scenario.

I have never flown a Smart, only packed them. I have not been impressed with watching them land at any wl over 1.2:1, nor have the pilots who landed them. Of course, that is only anecdotal, so I can't verify that statement, so take it for what it's worth.

Structually, the PD reserves seem to be one of the best, and their qc and customer service speaks for itself.

The downside to the OP is you can't get dacron lines. Dacron lines are highly recommended for any jumper whose exit weight is over 220 or puts a camera on their head. The PDR is available with Dacron lines.

The Precision R-Max seems like and is built like a very strong canopy, but then you have to deal with Precision customer service, which, historically, can be lacking (but the owner often is the guy answering the phone, which is awesome).

My recommendation: Which one do you have a local dealer for? Jump Shack and PD both make good products, and both have great customer service. Ask your rigger which he'd prefer to pack.

Buy Local and ask your rigger! Rarely does shopping online in this industry save you much, provided you ask and compare with your local gearstore. Keeping your sales tax in your community is better for you as an individual. Keeping profit at your DZ helps for improvements to your dz and possibly staves off a jump ticket price increase.

In general, though, most riggers will say PD because they are the most common and have great support and a great reputation.

The problem with asking for advice over the internet is that you don't know who is answering. Believe it or not, all these companies WANT to sell you equipment and are happy to talk to you about it. Realistically, at the level you are and your wingloading, most equipment will serve your purposes. You may look at TSO limits, though, because some DZ's enforce them. This limits your container brand.

Try giving the manufacturer's a call. They don't care if you are buying new or used, they'd love to help you out.

PD- (386) 738-2224
Jump Shack(386) 734-5867
Aerodyne-(813) 891 6300
Sunrise (Wings) (813) 780-7369 (Higher weight TSO)
Icarus 877-216-6958
Precision 423-949-9499
VSE (Inifity) (253) 445-8790 (because they are awesome)

Call them, don't be shy!


(This post was edited by floormonkey on Nov 16, 2012, 9:08 AM)


ctrph8  (D License)

Nov 16, 2012, 11:45 AM
Post #11 of 21 (2533 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Earlier this year I packed an old Firelite. It was in beautiful condition and only been packed a few times. However, as nice as it was, it was still made of really porous F-111 and would probably land much harder than a "modern" F-111 reserve of the same size. Every time I see one of the older ones I want to go hug my Optimum.

I can probably get you the Firelite for real cheap Wink

Does anyone know what they are calling the Optimum material? It's not any of the variations of F-111... That I know of. I don't think you can buy raw material and if you need to do a patch it has to go back to PD.



In reply to:
they are supposed to fly more like modern parachutes than traditional 7 cell F-111 parachutes.

In reply to:


Reading the incident reports, aren't 'modern parachutes' a little gamey to land at times? I'll stick with tradition thanks anyway. Wink


theonlyski  (D License)

Nov 16, 2012, 1:05 PM
Post #12 of 21 (2491 views)
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Re: [ctrph8] Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Does anyone know what they are calling the Optimum material? It's not any of the variations of F-111... That I know of. I don't think you can buy raw material and if you need to do a patch it has to go back to PD.

Pretty sure they specify that any patches must be done with supplies directly from PD.


Deyan  (D 322)

Nov 16, 2012, 1:47 PM
Post #13 of 21 (2472 views)
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Re: [floormonkey] Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Can't speak to the angelfire, never flown one or seen one.

I've jumped (after cutaway) and demo'd both the PDR143 and OP 143, as well as demo'd the PDR126 OP 126. I also demo the OP 143 (or whatever reserve I own) at least once a year. I've packed both many times, as well as numerous others.

The OP143 hits the sweet spot for comfortably survivable for me, at 1.4:1. The OP 126 @ 1.6:1 did not seem to be comfortably survivable with one toggle popped, all weight on one side of harness (to simulate unconsciousness) for me. The PDR 143 also has the same feeling of comfortable survivability.

The OP143 has a stronger flare, as well as flies "better" (take that how you want). I felt the OP143 could be easily landed at 1.4:1 as a PLF only. I felt the OP126 could have also been landed with a PLF only without injury, but I preferred the 143 in worst case scenario.

I have never flown a Smart, only packed them. I have not been impressed with watching them land at any wl over 1.2:1, nor have the pilots who landed them. Of course, that is only anecdotal, so I can't verify that statement, so take it for what it's worth.

Structually, the PD reserves seem to be one of the best, and their qc and customer service speaks for itself.

The downside to the OP is you can't get dacron lines. Dacron lines are highly recommended for any jumper whose exit weight is over 220 or puts a camera on their head. The PDR is available with Dacron lines.

The Precision R-Max seems like and is built like a very strong canopy, but then you have to deal with Precision customer service, which, historically, can be lacking (but the owner often is the guy answering the phone, which is awesome).

My recommendation: Which one do you have a local dealer for? Jump Shack and PD both make good products, and both have great customer service. Ask your rigger which he'd prefer to pack.

Buy Local and ask your rigger! Rarely does shopping online in this industry save you much, provided you ask and compare with your local gearstore. Keeping your sales tax in your community is better for you as an individual. Keeping profit at your DZ helps for improvements to your dz and possibly staves off a jump ticket price increase.

In general, though, most riggers will say PD because they are the most common and have great support and a great reputation.

The problem with asking for advice over the internet is that you don't know who is answering. Believe it or not, all these companies WANT to sell you equipment and are happy to talk to you about it. Realistically, at the level you are and your wingloading, most equipment will serve your purposes. You may look at TSO limits, though, because some DZ's enforce them. This limits your container brand.

Try giving the manufacturer's a call. They don't care if you are buying new or used, they'd love to help you out.

PD- (386) 738-2224
Jump Shack(386) 734-5867
Aerodyne-(813) 891 6300
Sunrise (Wings) (813) 780-7369 (Higher weight TSO)
Icarus 877-216-6958
Precision 423-949-9499
VSE (Inifity) (253) 445-8790 (because they are awesome)

Call them, don't be shy!

To the OP,

The above is the best post so far.....buy local,talk to your rigger, call the manufacturers and get a demo.


racerman  (C 18409)

Nov 18, 2012, 4:36 PM
Post #14 of 21 (2147 views)
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Re: [Maksimsf] Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Angel Fire hands down!!! I've had a reserve ride on mine and the canopy ride was fantastic. I wish they would offer it as a main. Quick opening, great handling and super flare! I've had several reserve rides over 36 years in the sport and the Angel Fire was the best!


3331  (D 3331)

Nov 20, 2012, 1:10 PM
Post #15 of 21 (2017 views)
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Re: [racerman] Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy? [In reply to] Can't Post

+10 Cool


Wright  (D 7958)

Nov 20, 2012, 2:39 PM
Post #16 of 21 (1969 views)
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Re: [3331] Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Parachute Labs (Jumpshack) makes the best canopies. The firebolt main and the angelfire reserve.

Jump nothing else.


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Nov 20, 2012, 3:31 PM
Post #17 of 21 (1945 views)
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Re: [Wright] Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Parachute Labs (Jumpshack) makes the best canopies. The firebolt main and the angelfire reserve.

Jump nothing else.

Can you remind us who your sponsor is ?


theonlyski  (D License)

Nov 20, 2012, 4:55 PM
Post #18 of 21 (1905 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Parachute Labs (Jumpshack) makes the best canopies. The firebolt main and the angelfire reserve.

Jump nothing else.

Can you remind us who your sponsor is ?

Shot in the dark:

Vector and PD.
LaughTongue


BlindBrick  (C 35382)

Nov 20, 2012, 7:12 PM
Post #19 of 21 (1865 views)
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Re: [floormonkey] Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The Precision R-Max seems like and is built like a very strong canopy, but then you have to deal with Precision customer service, which, historically, can be lacking (but the owner often is the guy answering the phone, which is awesome).

R-max's are f'ing awesome. All that structural reenforcement isn't just for looks. Mine has handled rough openings overloaded by 15% and lands well at 1.25.

-Blind


Jonesy920x  (D 13317)

Nov 20, 2012, 7:47 PM
Post #20 of 21 (1851 views)
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Re: [Maksimsf] Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy? [In reply to] Can't Post

You can't go wrong with either one. A couple things to think about, resale and construction techniques. The PD will have a lot better resale. Some of the Optimums don't actually pack smaller than their PDR counterparts (Call Nancy and ask her she sells all three). I ended up buying the Angelfire because of the way Jumpshack attaches the lines and tapes the seams. I only jump PD mains and loved my PDR reserve. The Angelfire offered what I believed was a better fit for what I was looking for.


(This post was edited by Jonesy920x on Nov 20, 2012, 7:51 PM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 21, 2012, 8:35 PM
Post #21 of 21 (1735 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Jump Shack Angel Fire or PD-R which one would you buy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Does anyone know what they are calling the Optimum material? It's not any of the variations of F-111... That I know of. I don't think you can buy raw material and if you need to do a patch it has to go back to PD.

Pretty sure they specify that any patches must be done with supplies directly from PD.

.............................

Funny!
The last time I discussed patching canopies made with Optimum fabric, John LeBlanc (Performance Designs) said to use regular F-111 fabric.
Mind you, I can count on one hand the number of square reserves that I have sewn patches on ... and most of that damage was caused by riggers who had more muscle than skill!
One reserve was damaged as it slid past a mis-routed main bridle. It was pure luck that he only suffered one small hole ... in the middle of a panel.



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