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Visualization of lift from WS

 

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kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 9, 2012, 10:24 AM
Post #1 of 46 (3055 views)
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Visualization of lift from WS Can't Post

Since some continue to doubt that a wingsuit jumper produces lift:

http://www.sciencefriday.com/...of-base-jumping.html

Wingtip vortices made visible.


normiss  (D 28356)

Nov 9, 2012, 1:39 PM
Post #2 of 46 (2947 views)
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Re: [kallend] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh I love restarted threads after mods lock us down.

Let me go get some popcorn and a fresh draught beer.


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 9, 2012, 2:14 PM
Post #3 of 46 (2932 views)
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Re: [normiss] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Oh I love restarted threads after mods lock us down.

Let me go get some popcorn and a fresh draught beer.

New information available makes it permissible.


johenrik  (D 61774)

Nov 9, 2012, 3:00 PM
Post #4 of 46 (2916 views)
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Re: [kallend] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Since some continue to doubt that a wingsuit jumper produces lift:

http://www.sciencefriday.com/...of-base-jumping.html

Wingtip vortices made visible.

Everyone knows that wingsuits produce lift. The question is if a wingsuit can create more lift than the force of gravity pulling us down.


5.samadhi

Nov 9, 2012, 3:19 PM
Post #5 of 46 (2908 views)
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Re: [johenrik] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

pretty sure that Tony has listened to that weird german girl and he is making his wingsuits in an extra large size designed for soaring near cliffs.


normiss  (D 28356)

Nov 9, 2012, 5:43 PM
Post #6 of 46 (2877 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

Thermals, it's all about thermals.


Shredex

Nov 9, 2012, 8:44 PM
Post #7 of 46 (2849 views)
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Re: [normiss] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

And how big of a burrito you had the night before.




gisellemartins

Nov 10, 2012, 12:24 PM
Post #9 of 46 (2678 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
pretty sure that Tony has listened to that weird german girl and he is making his wingsuits in an extra large size designed for soaring near cliffs.

Weird? I think the only weirdo here is you, your wrong as usual jumpers are, I'm not German, I'm Brazilian. Oh and by the way, yes Tony is a very open minded man and he will listen to almost anyone who has something interesting to contribute. Yes I do suggest Tony some design features, like pointed wingtips for less vortex and more performance, he did create a prototype with pointed wingtips, it flew really well but the proto has less internal pressure ( harder to fly)


(This post was edited by gisellemartins on Nov 10, 2012, 12:32 PM)




jakee  (C License)

Nov 10, 2012, 12:34 PM
Post #11 of 46 (2665 views)
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Re: [gisellemartins] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
he did create a prototype with pointed wingtips,... the proto has less internal pressure ( harder to fly)

Well blow me down. Who could possibly have predicted that?Shocked


gisellemartins

Nov 10, 2012, 12:43 PM
Post #12 of 46 (2659 views)
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Re: [jakee] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
he did create a prototype with pointed wingtips,... the proto has less internal pressure ( harder to fly)

Well blow me down. Who could possibly have predicted that?Shocked

Me and Tony predicted that, but in the world of glider design theory can sometimes be different from reality.

Pointed wingtips has its obvious advantages, that's why all high performance birds like albatrosses, falcons, gliders, etc.. all has pointed wingtips for less vortex and more performance.

If we can work out a way to keep the same pressure on the wings and keep the pointed long tips that would be a big gain in performance, I'm sure Tony will keep trying.


(This post was edited by gisellemartins on Nov 10, 2012, 12:57 PM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 10, 2012, 1:01 PM
Post #13 of 46 (2640 views)
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Re: [johenrik] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Since some continue to doubt that a wingsuit jumper produces lift:

http://www.sciencefriday.com/...of-base-jumping.html

Wingtip vortices made visible.

Everyone knows that wingsuits produce lift.

Many posts on dz.com show this not to be true.

In reply to:


The question is if a wingsuit can create more lift than the force of gravity pulling us down.

Any time your vertical speed decreases you are producing a lift force that exceeds the force of gravity. f=m(dv/dt) aka f=ma


(This post was edited by kallend on Nov 10, 2012, 1:02 PM)


gisellemartins

Nov 10, 2012, 1:23 PM
Post #14 of 46 (2632 views)
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Re: [johenrik] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Since some continue to doubt that a wingsuit jumper produces lift:

http://www.sciencefriday.comiencefriday.com/...of-base-jumping.html

Wingtip vortices made visible.

Everyone knows that wingsuits produce lift. The question is if a wingsuit can create more lift than the force of gravity pulling us down.

Not everyone knows it here, showed by many posters before. A wingsuit will do that when it's sink rate (vertical speed) be less than the speed of the rising air. The speed of the rising air minus your wingsuit sink rate, the result is how much lift your having. The bigger the suit the better the sink rate, the better the sink rate the more chance you have to lifted by rising air.


(This post was edited by gisellemartins on Nov 10, 2012, 1:26 PM)


sky12345

Nov 10, 2012, 2:05 PM
Post #15 of 46 (2620 views)
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Re: [kallend] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wingtip vortices made visible.

Wingtip vortices do not necessarily indicate that there's lift. Even at 90 degree angle of attack there will be vortices, but no lift, only drag.

If the object does not follow the path of a falling sphere, it is by definition developing lift, vortices or not, since it is lift that is perpendicular to the trajectory at each moment and thus only lift can deviate object from falling straight down.

In reply to:
Any time your vertical speed decreases you are producing a lift force that exceeds the force of gravity. f=m(dv/dt) aka f=ma

Wrong - not any time. When we're moving down, it's not only lift that opposes gravity, but also drag. When the vector sum of lift and drag exceeds gravity, lift not necessarily does, it can still be less than gravity. In two situations - on high-speed exit when jumper goes above the plane and when "Wing Suits Gain Altitud. PERIOD!" Wink, lift exceeds gravity any time.

Maybe you should go back to school to study elementary physics, like Brazilian chick suggests, Professer? Cool


jakee  (C License)

Nov 10, 2012, 2:48 PM
Post #16 of 46 (2601 views)
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Re: [gisellemartins] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Since some continue to doubt that a wingsuit jumper produces lift:

http://www.sciencefriday.comiencefriday.com/...of-base-jumping.html

Wingtip vortices made visible.

Everyone knows that wingsuits produce lift. The question is if a wingsuit can create more lift than the force of gravity pulling us down.

Not everyone knows it here, showed by many posters before. A wingsuit will do that when it's sink rate (vertical speed) be less than the speed of the rising air. The speed of the rising air minus your wingsuit sink rate, the result is how much lift your having. The bigger the suit the better the sink rate, the better the sink rate the more chance you have to lifted by rising air.

It's like you're doing it on purpose. You're starting a fresh conversation at cross-purposes with everyone else and you'll probably start calling everyone else an idiot if they continue the original conversation. The entire song and dance is in danger of happening all over again.


gisellemartins

Nov 10, 2012, 3:15 PM
Post #17 of 46 (2592 views)
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Re: [jakee] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Since some continue to doubt that a wingsuit jumper produces lift:

http://www.sciencefriday.comiencefriday.com/...of-base-jumping.html

Wingtip vortices made visible.

Everyone knows that wingsuits produce lift. The question is if a wingsuit can create more lift than the force of gravity pulling us down.

Not everyone knows it here, showed by many posters before. A wingsuit will do that when it's sink rate (vertical speed) be less than the speed of the rising air. The speed of the rising air minus your wingsuit sink rate, the result is how much lift your having. The bigger the suit the better the sink rate, the better the sink rate the more chance you have to lifted by rising air.

It's like you're doing it on purpose. You're starting a fresh conversation at cross-purposes with everyone else and you'll probably start calling everyone else an idiot if they continue the original conversation. The entire song and dance is in danger of happening all over again.

Jake you are the one always causing trouble. Kellend and I said not everyone knows it, that's not insulting or calling others idiots. The only person always swearing and insulting others here is you. Franckly, get a life and leave us having a good productive conversation.


Yorick  (D 108976)

Nov 10, 2012, 7:46 PM
Post #18 of 46 (2523 views)
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Re: [gisellemartins] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Since some continue to doubt that a wingsuit jumper produces lift:

http://www.sciencefriday.comiencefriday.com/...of-base-jumping.html

Wingtip vortices made visible.

Everyone knows that wingsuits produce lift. The question is if a wingsuit can create more lift than the force of gravity pulling us down.

Not everyone knows it here, showed by many posters before. A wingsuit will do that when it's sink rate (vertical speed) be less than the speed of the rising air. The speed of the rising air minus your wingsuit sink rate, the result is how much lift your having. The bigger the suit the better the sink rate, the better the sink rate the more chance you have to lifted by rising air.

Sorry, I don't quiet get why rising air comes here into the equation. I mean. Your right, but wingsuits are hardly affected by rising air.


normiss  (D 28356)

Nov 10, 2012, 8:57 PM
Post #19 of 46 (2512 views)
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Re: [Yorick] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

speaking of rising air, beer!
Cool


jakee  (C License)

Nov 11, 2012, 9:26 AM
Post #20 of 46 (2437 views)
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Re: [gisellemartins] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Since some continue to doubt that a wingsuit jumper produces lift:

http://www.sciencefriday.comiencefriday.com/...of-base-jumping.html

Wingtip vortices made visible.

Everyone knows that wingsuits produce lift. The question is if a wingsuit can create more lift than the force of gravity pulling us down.

Not everyone knows it here, showed by many posters before. A wingsuit will do that when it's sink rate (vertical speed) be less than the speed of the rising air. The speed of the rising air minus your wingsuit sink rate, the result is how much lift your having. The bigger the suit the better the sink rate, the better the sink rate the more chance you have to lifted by rising air.

It's like you're doing it on purpose. You're starting a fresh conversation at cross-purposes with everyone else and you'll probably start calling everyone else an idiot if they continue the original conversation. The entire song and dance is in danger of happening all over again.

Jake you are the one always causing trouble. Kellend and I said not everyone knows it,

But you're talking about a completely different phenomenon to Kallend. If that continues to be the case, how productive is the conversation going to be?


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 11, 2012, 10:01 AM
Post #21 of 46 (2432 views)
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Re: [sky12345] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Wingtip vortices made visible.

Wingtip vortices do not necessarily indicate that there's lift. Even at 90 degree angle of attack there will be vortices, but no lift, only drag.

The vortices made visible in the referenced video are clearly produced by lift and not drag. A cursory examination of their symmetry shows this.


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 11, 2012, 10:03 AM
Post #22 of 46 (2431 views)
Shortcut
Re: [gisellemartins] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Since some continue to doubt that a wingsuit jumper produces lift:

http://www.sciencefriday.comiencefriday.com/...of-base-jumping.html

Wingtip vortices made visible.

Everyone knows that wingsuits produce lift. The question is if a wingsuit can create more lift than the force of gravity pulling us down.

Not everyone knows it here, showed by many posters before. A wingsuit will do that when it's sink rate (vertical speed) be less than the speed of the rising air. The speed of the rising air minus your wingsuit sink rate, the result is how much lift your having. The bigger the suit the better the sink rate, the better the sink rate the more chance you have to lifted by rising air.

Lift and drag are forces, and forces produce accelerations, not speeds. You are confused.


gisellemartins

Nov 11, 2012, 1:34 PM
Post #23 of 46 (2393 views)
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Re: [johenrik] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Everyone knows that wingsuits produce lift. The question is if a wingsuit can create more lift than the force of gravity pulling us down.

Hi Jo, I forgot to mention something, that makes it easier to understand.

A wingsuit no matter how big it can be, will never produce itself enough lift to win over gravity and sustain flight, not only a wingsuit but any other glider in the world, doesn't matter if a Glide Ratio of 3:1 or 50:1 like on sailplanes, all of them are gliding down, one slower with better sink rate than another, but all going down.

There only 2 ways a wingsuit or any other glider will ever win over gravity and sustain flight.

1- With a motor/turbine.

2- With rising air.

As wingsuits usually are gliders ( no motor ) the only way I could see a wingsuit win over gravity is when it became big enough with better sink rate, then rising air will start to have profound effect and be a game changer, but by now wingsuits are bit small for any effective lift by rising air.

Together with my first post, I hope you can have an idea of how it works.

Lauren


(This post was edited by gisellemartins on Nov 11, 2012, 1:48 PM)


gisellemartins

Nov 11, 2012, 1:38 PM
Post #24 of 46 (2390 views)
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Re: [kallend] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Since some continue to doubt that a wingsuit jumper produces lift:

http://www.sciencefriday.comiencefriday.com/...of-base-jumping.html

Wingtip vortices made visible.

Everyone knows that wingsuits produce lift. The question is if a wingsuit can create more lift than the force of gravity pulling us down.

A wingsuit will do that when it's sink rate (vertical speed) be less than the speed of the rising air. The speed of the rising air minus your wingsuit sink rate, the result is how much lift your having. The bigger the suit the better the sink rate, the better the sink rate the more chance you have to lifted by rising air.

Lift and drag are forces, and forces produce accelerations, not speeds. You are confused.

You are the only one confused here, Firstly I'm answering the question from "Jo" member about lift over gravity. You the sky god who claim to know everything is lacking of simple elementary physics as the other poster correctly put it.

The explanation I give above is simple physics and it is exactly what happens in the real world of flying and physics applied to flying.


(This post was edited by gisellemartins on Nov 11, 2012, 1:46 PM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 11, 2012, 1:41 PM
Post #25 of 46 (2383 views)
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Re: [gisellemartins] Visualization of lift from WS [In reply to] Can't Post

<Yawn>


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