Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
Learning curve

 


NeonLights  (D License)

Nov 8, 2012, 6:48 PM
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Learning curve Can't Post

Hello everybody, i am somewhat new to skydiving. I started AFF over a year ago but only recently got licensed. Im at 42 jumps right now and have about 45 mins in the tunnel. Right now am working on my sitfly. I got fwd, backward, lateral movement and turns down. Getting better at up and down and sit to sit flips. When i have talked to people at my local DZ's though they say that i should not be freeflying and should be on my belly. Just wondering what your thoughts are on this topic... If i am learning fast and being safe, i dont see what is wrong with this. Anyone?


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 8, 2012, 7:39 PM
Post #2 of 21 (2479 views)
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It's usually best to listen to the people that actually know you, your skills and your history.

Flying on your belly is the basic position you need to be extremely familiar with, and able to deploy from.

Your tunnel skills not withstanding, you're averaging what ~ less than 4 jumps per month?

In the interest of keeping yourself safe and the DZ peeps off your back I'd go ahead and jump through the hoops they're telling to.

At this early point in your skydiving career you really don't wanna develop the reputation of being 'That Guy' who thinks his Madd-Skillz deserve special consideration.


Good luck & be safe! Wink


monkycndo  (D License)

Nov 8, 2012, 8:03 PM
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Freeflying is being able to fly your body in any position, including your belly. Start there, and learn those skills before you start adding other orientations into the dive flow.

I can't tell you how many times I was part of the belly flying base on a hybrid jump and the freeflier hangers had a hard time docking to take grips. They never learned because they went straight to FF.


DocPop  (C License)

Nov 8, 2012, 8:04 PM
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If you can track well and pull stable on your belly and you're otherwise safe then I don't see the point in the commonly touted "You have to get good on your belly first".

Of course, if you want to fly video, or get many forms of rating then belly flying is required.


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 8, 2012, 8:16 PM
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~I don't see the point in the commonly touted~


In reply to:

I have no doubt there...but history has shown it's 'commonly' not a great idea to ignore the wisdom developed through time & experience as an actual instructor in the sport.

But I could be wrong, there's a first time for everything! Wink


DocPop  (C License)

Nov 8, 2012, 8:20 PM
Post #6 of 21 (2454 views)
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In reply to:
I have no doubt there...but history has shown it's 'commonly' not a great idea to ignore the wisdom developed through time & experience as an actual instructor in the sport.

But I could be wrong, there's a first time for everything! Wink

But that's just your opinion (not saying it's wrong - just that you didn't give a reason). It would be great to hear a solid reason why it's not advisable to become a total body pilot first.


NeonLights  (D License)

Nov 8, 2012, 8:38 PM
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Said people have not jumped with me. They asked when we were organizing loads Or waiting for a load. And jumps 5-42 have all been in the last month and a half. If it is too early, what kind of proficiency on my belly should be accomplished before moving on to freeflying? Thanks for your input!


monkycndo  (D License)

Nov 8, 2012, 8:56 PM
Post #8 of 21 (2425 views)
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Neon, this is the internet. Without knowing their background, the advice given by the folks here might not be the best. So take everything said so far with a grain of salt. You might be getting advice from a "shit hot" canopy pilot that only does hop-n-pops or a wingsuiter that only takes off his prom dress to go to Nationals.Angelic

A wise old fart told me that listen to all the advice given, then take the what is the most conservative.


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 8, 2012, 8:59 PM
Post #9 of 21 (2424 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I have no doubt there...but history has shown it's 'commonly' not a great idea to ignore the wisdom developed through time & experience as an actual instructor in the sport.

But I could be wrong, there's a first time for everything! Wink

But that's just your opinion (not saying it's wrong - just that you didn't give a reason). It would be great to hear a solid reason why it's not advisable to become a total body pilot first.

Wouldn't being a 'total body pilot' mean that one can fly consistently flat while deploying a parachute?

Wouldn't it be a bit difficult to show you CAN do that CONSISTANTLY when you are actually DEPLOYING a parachute only a few times a month?

As guy who says he only does hop & pops and doesn't now hold or has ever earned an instructional rating...I would suggest you refrain from giving advise on progression to someone you've never met, seen or flown with.

Referring them to an actual instructor from their drop-zone just might be a safer thing to do...

Do you across the Internet KNOW how well this person actually flies?

Probably not, why then would you be so bold as to offer your opinion over that of someone who KNOWS?


I'm not saying he's not a good flyer and should not scoot right in to vertical...I said he should listen to the people around him.

I would humbly suggest in all seriousness you put in the time & work hands ON with few hundred students.


NeonLights  (D License)

Nov 8, 2012, 9:02 PM
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In reply to:
Neon, this is the internet. Without knowing their background, the advice given by the folks here might not be the best. So take everything said so far with a grain of salt. You might be getting advice from a "shit hot" canopy pilot that only does hop-n-pops or a wingsuiter that only takes off his prom dress to go to Nationals.Angelic

A wise old fart told me that listen to all the advice given, then take the what is the most conservative.


I am doing just that! If i really want or need advice i use the guys i trust at the local DZ's. However they are also have their opinions and are biased in one way or another. I just figured i would see what the members of dropzone thought of this!


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 8, 2012, 9:08 PM
Post #11 of 21 (2420 views)
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In reply to:
Said people have not jumped with me. They asked when we were organizing loads Or waiting for a load. And jumps 5-42 have all been in the last month and a half. If it is too early, what kind of proficiency on my belly should be accomplished before moving on to freeflying? Thanks for your input!

There ya go Neon...That's the find of information that is important here.

So you are VERY current...Cool

So you have a lot of tunnel time and are comfortable flying your body...Cool

Just to make the peeps there happy...offer to let them jump out & evaluate your skills if they have reservations. Wink


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Nov 8, 2012, 9:11 PM)


DocPop  (C License)

Nov 8, 2012, 9:15 PM
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In reply to:
Wouldn't being a 'total body pilot' mean that one can fly consistently flat while deploying a parachute?

Yes, of course. See my initial post.

In reply to:
Wouldn't it be a bit difficult to show you CAN do that CONSISTANTLY when you are actually DEPLOYING a parachute only a few times a month?

Being cleared for solo jumping only requires that a person demonstrates it 7 times per the AFF course.

In reply to:
As guy who says he only does hop & pops and doesn't now hold or has ever earned an instructional rating...I would suggest you refrain from giving advise on progression to someone you've never met, seen or flown with.

I offered my opinion. That's all.

In reply to:
Referring them to an actual instructor from their drop-zone just might be a safer thing to do...

And yet consistently people do offer advice here to people they have never met. I did not advise any course of action - I merely offered an opinion.

In reply to:
Do you across the Internet KNOW how well this person actually flies?

Probably not, why then would you be so bold as to offer your opinion over that of someone who KNOWS?

Because an opinion was asked for.


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Nov 9, 2012, 2:49 AM
Post #13 of 21 (2346 views)
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In reply to:
It would be great to hear a solid reason why it's not advisable to become a total body pilot first.

OK, here's the way a very good freefly instructor explained it to me, a while ago. Keep in mind that I am not a freeflier of any kind, but it seemed like solid reasoning to me when we were talking:

Being a 'total body pilot' is indeed about being able to fly well in all orientations. But while some of those orientations are harder to learn in than others, the behaviour of air and body are the same in all of them.

By getting good on your belly, you are learning a lot of things about airflow and movement that apply to head-up, head-down and back - but more quickly, because flying on your belly is easier.

Of course there are people who don't do it that way and get very good indeed, but this is one suggestion why it's maybe not the most efficient way to get there.


DocPop  (C License)

Nov 9, 2012, 8:02 AM
Post #14 of 21 (2227 views)
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Re: [Joellercoaster] Learning curve [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for that.

I could certainly buy the argument that it is the most efficient way to get to be a total body pilot. But that is quite different from telling someone they should not do it, which is the unsupported position I have heard taken.


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 9, 2012, 8:26 AM
Post #15 of 21 (2209 views)
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In reply to:
Thanks for that.

I could certainly buy the argument that it is the most efficient way to get to be a total body pilot. But that is quite different from telling someone they should not do it, which is the unsupported position I have heard taken.

And that clearly illustrates the problem with giving advise over the Internet.

This 'body pilot' progression topic has been discussed before...because YOU didn't understand the conventional wisdom you stated an opinion going against it.

Often though hard to do, it's best not to give ANY advise as opposed to giving some that differs from that which is 'commonly' put forth.

The phrase ~
'You don't even know what all you don't know'
has been around for quite a while.

No trying to be condescending, but your opinions in another area of progression were also against conventional wisdom. It took you a while to see some validity in that and step it down a notch.

Going off 'ready fire, aim' maybe isn't the best procedure when giving skydiving advise to people that possibly don't understand - YOU don't understand.

With about 8 times as many jumps & over 7 times the time in this sport ~ if I've learned anything, it's to go with the conventional wisdom with regard to being safe and trying to survive. So far so good. Wink


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Nov 9, 2012, 8:37 AM)


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Nov 9, 2012, 8:36 AM
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Re: [NeonLights] Learning curve [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you dive out of the plane, swoop down to a formation, dock gently and hover in place while you turn more points? That's the basic skill level you need to achieve. I've seen freeflyers with 500 jumps who could NOT do those simple tasks. There's no way they could qualify for an AFF instructor rating.

If you CAN do those things on your belly, sure, go have some fun freeflying. Make sure you keep track of your altitude, though. Tunnel rats sometimes forget they don't have 2 minutes in the sky. Wink

My son was a tunnel instructor when he started AFF. His last two jumps for his A license were coaching ME on my sitflying. No problem, but he had shown excellent altitude awareness on every jump. That, plus growing up at the dropzone, he had a healthy respect for the sport. Some people think they can't get killed. Crazy


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Nov 9, 2012, 8:37 AM
Post #17 of 21 (2198 views)
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Re: [NeonLights] Learning curve [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hello everybody, i am somewhat new to skydiving. I started AFF over a year ago but only recently got licensed. Im at 42 jumps right now and have about 45 mins in the tunnel. Right now am working on my sitfly. I got fwd, backward, lateral movement and turns down. Getting better at up and down and sit to sit flips. When i have talked to people at my local DZ's though they say that i should not be freeflying and should be on my belly. Just wondering what your thoughts are on this topic... If i am learning fast and being safe, i dont see what is wrong with this. Anyone?

Some dude once said "Learn to love your belly before you begin exploring your butt."
Regardless of what discipline you go into later on, belly skills are essential and beneficial.
Working daily with a world-champion freeflier, I often overhear people ask "What should I do to prep for being a great free-flier?"
Every time; "Stay on your belly for as long as you can, do the Excel camps, do four-way, jump with others on your belly as much as you can."


NeonLights  (D License)

Nov 9, 2012, 9:11 AM
Post #18 of 21 (2171 views)
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Re: [DSE] Learning curve [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, alot of great points here.
I guess i will work on my belly skills ALONG WITH freeflying. Because i love going fast, and the reason i skydive is for FUN. Can't forget about that.
Again, thanks for your input. Young grasshopper is pleased


(This post was edited by NeonLights on Nov 9, 2012, 9:12 AM)


dthames  (B 37674)

Nov 11, 2012, 5:52 AM
Post #19 of 21 (1985 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Learning curve [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Thanks for that.

I could certainly buy the argument that it is the most efficient way to get to be a total body pilot. But that is quite different from telling someone they should not do it, which is the unsupported position I have heard taken.

And that clearly illustrates the problem with giving advise over the Internet.

This 'body pilot' progression topic has been discussed before...because YOU didn't understand the conventional wisdom you stated an opinion going against it.

Often though hard to do, it's best not to give ANY advise as opposed to giving some that differs from that which is 'commonly' put forth.

The phrase ~
'You don't even know what all you don't know'
has been around for quite a while.

No trying to be condescending, but your opinions in another area of progression were also against conventional wisdom. It took you a while to see some validity in that and step it down a notch.

Going off 'ready fire, aim' maybe isn't the best procedure when giving skydiving advise to people that possibly don't understand - YOU don't understand.

With about 8 times as many jumps & over 7 times the time in this sport ~ if I've learned anything, it's to go with the conventional wisdom with regard to being safe and trying to survive. So far so good. Wink

Airtwardo,

Thanks! What a great model of how to teach on the Internet. Like it or not, many of us rely on this forum to help shape our understanding and to help us in our efforts. Not everyone has direct access to full time instructors and a 365 day a year DZ.

To communicate, “Slow down, listen, and learn” instead of “Shut up and listen, dummy or you will prove you are a hardhead” is very nice to hear. In my first few months on DZ.com it was easy to identify several regular posters that have a huge amount to teach new comers. But when people are slow to listen and tempers flare, learning often stops.

I think by the act of gearing up we are all sort of hard headed. If we didn’t think we had at least some level of “IT” figured out, we have no business jumping. Confidence to jump must breed some level of being hard headed. Love you guys/gals that take the time to temper the message so it can soak in.


rss_v

Nov 11, 2012, 9:02 AM
Post #20 of 21 (1933 views)
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Re: [NeonLights] Learning curve [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hello everybody, i am somewhat new to skydiving. I started AFF over a year ago but only recently got licensed. Im at 42 jumps right now and have about 45 mins in the tunnel. Right now am working on my sitfly. I got fwd, backward, lateral movement and turns down. Getting better at up and down and sit to sit flips. When i have talked to people at my local DZ's though they say that i should not be freeflying and should be on my belly. Just wondering what your thoughts are on this topic... If i am learning fast and being safe, i dont see what is wrong with this. Anyone?

No one knows what you do on solo jumps. Whether you waste the next 1000 jumps "being safe" and burning a hole straight down (or is it straight? how would you know?) on your belly, or keep trying to fly in other ways, or just curl up into a ball and cry until 4k... no one will know!

"just saying"


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 11, 2012, 7:17 PM
Post #21 of 21 (1851 views)
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The SHADOW Knows!



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