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All this before first landing?

 

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OHCHUTE

Nov 5, 2012, 1:43 PM
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All this before first landing? Can't Post

OK, I already know I'm decending while under canope but I need to know how to level off, slow, turn one way, perhaps turn back the other way, slow fly and stall, recover from stall etc. Will they give me the chance to practice all this before I'm in the pattern and preparing to commit to a landing? Like I need to know how this acts before getting down in there. Free fall doesn't seem as important to learning how to land while up high before it's actually time to land. I'm not sure why much of the first jump is concentrated on free falling, not on slow flying the chute while practicing turns?


Premier Remster  (C License)

Nov 5, 2012, 1:47 PM
Post #2 of 34 (5613 views)
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Re: [OHCHUTE] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

1- Take a deep breath.

2- Get off the internet (but finish reading this post 1st)

3- Go to your 1st jump class and listen to your instructor.


theonlyski  (D License)

Nov 5, 2012, 1:49 PM
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Re: [OHCHUTE] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

You're committing to landing once you exit the airplane. There are no go-arounds under canopy. Wink

As a first jump student, you will likely be deploying around 5,500 feet, this should give you at least a few minutes under canopy to practice what the instructors have taught you about canopy flight up to that point.

If you're nervous about flying a canopy, you can always do a tandem and have the instructor on your back guiding you thru it.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Nov 5, 2012, 1:52 PM
Post #4 of 34 (5602 views)
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Re: [OHCHUTE] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Many DZ's have you do one or two instructional tandems before you do AFF -- that's a tandem jump where you're the one who's doing the steering, and doing all that judgment. You have the tandem master as a backup. Another thing that many DZ's do is to have a radio on you.

Either way, you're right that once you've jumped, you have no good choice but to land the parachute -- it is really important to get it right. If you have questions, ask them. Of course, you might not know what questions you're missing, but you've actually got a good handle with what you're describing about what you want to know. If your instructor is too busy to talk to you, then ask when or with whom you can take more time -- you're the one jumping your parachute.

Regardless, you should have 4-5000 feet of canopy control time on any student jump.

Wendy P.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Nov 5, 2012, 2:12 PM
Post #5 of 34 (5564 views)
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Re: [OHCHUTE] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
OK, I already know I'm decending while under canope but I need to know how to level off, slow, turn one way, perhaps turn back the other way, slow fly and stall, recover from stall etc. Will they give me the chance to practice all this before I'm in the pattern and preparing to commit to a landing? Like I need to know how this acts before getting down in there. Free fall doesn't seem as important to learning how to land while up high before it's actually time to land. I'm not sure why much of the first jump is concentrated on free falling, not on slow flying the chute while practicing turns?

#1 - It is covered in detail during the FJC. Really. They should cover everything you need to know.
If they don't, ask questions. If you don't understand something, keep asking until you do.

#2 - It isn't all that hard. You have 2 controls. A left toggle and a right toggle. Left turns are accomplished by pulling... (wait for it)...

the left toggle.

I'll leave it to you to figure out how to make a right turn, Tongue

Flaring and slow flight is accomplished by pulling both.

You will be pulling fairly high (5000 or so) at first. Plenty of time to practice.

You also will have a radio, with an instructor advising you what to do and when.

You will also be on a very large student canopy. If you are foolish enough to buy your own rig before jumping, you most likely won't be allowed to jump it (I saw the other thread you started). Student canopies are large, slow, predictable and forgiving of most errors.

I've seen students flare about 25' up and sink in, I've seen no flares, I've seen half to three quarter flars held from about 50' up all the way down.
None of those landings were very pretty, but none of them resulted in injuries.

I have seen a too high flare that was fully released too close to the ground. The canopy surged, the jumper pendulumned back and the canopy dove towards the ground. The student had the wind knocked out of him and some bumps and bruises. And the radio instructor had to change his shorts.

Remi's right. Don't try to learn the FJC here. All you'll do is piss off your instructors.

There's lots of silly, fun stuff in the Bonfire. You could make friends with the ladies by joining the "Glory" thread (assuming that you're a guy).Angelic


OHCHUTE

Nov 5, 2012, 2:19 PM
Post #6 of 34 (5547 views)
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Re: [wmw999] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Many DZ's have you do one or two instructional tandems before you do AFF -- that's a tandem jump where you're the one who's doing the steering, and doing all that judgment. You have the tandem master as a backup. Another thing that many DZ's do is to have a radio on you.

Either way, you're right that once you've jumped, you have no good choice but to land the parachute -- it is really important to get it right. If you have questions, ask them. Of course, you might not know what questions you're missing, but you've actually got a good handle with what you're describing about what you want to know. If your instructor is too busy to talk to you, then ask when or with whom you can take more time -- you're the one jumping your parachute.

Regardless, you should have 4-5000 feet of canopy control time on any student jump.

Wendy P.

Thanks for responding. I'm speaking from an experienced flight instructors point of view. Realistically I'd prefer 10,000 ft of steerable chute experience on the first AFF jump. I'd want to do 360's in both directions, slow flight, turns while slow flying, stalls, and recovery from stalls etc before entering the pattern, basically knowing the full flight characteristics of the chute before landing, long before gliding through 4,000. So I know what I'm dealing with. I realize flying a few tandum flights will help, but I would imagine the flight characteristics of tandum are different than solo rig. Yes of course I'd be listening to instructor. Just wondering if this concentration is how it is done or is first AFF concentrate on free falling? And when does the wing stall or lines get twisted in steep banking turn? I want to know this and how to recover while flying well before 4,500ft. Thanks.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Nov 5, 2012, 2:23 PM
Post #7 of 34 (5540 views)
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Re: [OHCHUTE] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is this thing on?

Test

Test

One

two

Check


uberchris  (A License)

Nov 5, 2012, 2:32 PM
Post #8 of 34 (5526 views)
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Re: [OHCHUTE] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

youre going to be flying slow as hell already on the GIGANTIC student canopy they are going to make you fly as a student.


Bertt  (D 99999)

Nov 5, 2012, 2:34 PM
Post #9 of 34 (5523 views)
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Re: [OHCHUTE] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

There are two parts to landing a parachute.
1) Flare at the right height.
2) Do a PLF (parachute landing fall).
Have an instructor explain and demonstrate those things for you and the process will be clearer.

Parachutes don't stall the way airplanes do. An AFF instructor can explain this in more detail, so I'll leave it at that.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Nov 5, 2012, 2:42 PM
Post #10 of 34 (5512 views)
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Re: [OHCHUTE] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'd want to do 360's in both directions, slow flight, turns while slow flying, stalls, and recovery from stalls etc before entering the pattern, basically knowing the full flight characteristics of the chute before landing, long before gliding through 4,000.

I'm a private pilot and if I were taking up a totally unknown aircraft, I'd sure like to explore the lower end of the envelope too.

But for a student parachute, you just don't need to. If you put one hand 3" lower on your turn to final, you won't stall, spin, and burst into flame. With normal arm motion, it is normally nearly impossible to stall the canopy no matter what you do. It is all pretty simple at that level.

You will want to practice flares, under the supervision of the guy at the radio. Getting the flare just right does take a little practice, and the full effect is only gained by having the ground as reference -- ie, once per jump on landing.

The guy assisting on the radio is going to have a tough time if you open up at 10,000'. Later on in your jumping career you may want to do such high 'hop and pops' to learn more about more advanced canopies.

So for now, a minute or two of canopy control practice per jump, is enough to get you on your way pretty safely.


OHCHUTE

Nov 5, 2012, 2:53 PM
Post #11 of 34 (5501 views)
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Re: [pchapman] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'd want to do 360's in both directions, slow flight, turns while slow flying, stalls, and recovery from stalls etc before entering the pattern, basically knowing the full flight characteristics of the chute before landing, long before gliding through 4,000.

I'm a private pilot and if I were taking up a totally unknown aircraft, I'd sure like to explore the lower end of the envelope too.

But for a student parachute, you just don't need to. If you put one hand 3" lower on your turn to final, you won't stall, spin, and burst into flame. With normal arm motion, it is normally nearly impossible to stall the canopy no matter what you do. It is all pretty simple at that level.

You will want to practice flares, under the supervision of the guy at the radio. Getting the flare just right does take a little practice, and the full effect is only gained by having the ground as reference -- ie, once per jump on landing.

The guy assisting on the radio is going to have a tough time if you open up at 10,000'. Later on in your jumping career you may want to do such high 'hop and pops' to learn more about more advanced canopies.

So for now, a minute or two of canopy control practice per jump, is enough to get you on your way pretty safely.

Thanks for the pilots perspective. Yes I ring out newly flown aircraft before I try to land them. OK so it's not as critical as I thought. Yes the main objective is not to flair too high or not flair at all but if there is not much flair involved with student chute then there's little to worry about. Seems pretty easy... now. Thanks. Best is to watch a few students land their chutes sitting at the picnic table at the field and I gather it will come together pretty quick. Thanks all!


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Nov 5, 2012, 2:54 PM
Post #12 of 34 (5500 views)
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Re: [OHCHUTE] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Lots of idiots make it down just fine on their first jump. Just relax and pay attention in your FJC. Don't be the guy that shows up and thinks he knows it all since he is a pilot. Go in with an open mind, pay attention and have fun. It's really not that hard!


OHCHUTE

Nov 5, 2012, 3:02 PM
Post #13 of 34 (5486 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Lots of idiots make it down just fine on their first jump. Just relax and pay attention in your FJC. Don't be the guy that shows up and thinks he knows it all since he is a pilot. Go in with an open mind, pay attention and have fun. It's really not that hard!

I already got the word from a skydiving instructor who told me that pilots have a tendency to flair high. So while speaking with that instructor I/ we attempted to analize why that might be the case. I'm a great flight instructor, but I'm also a good student. No way would I show up at a DZ with an "I know about this sport attitude." Yes it's about fun. Learning new stuff is fun. Thanks for your, and others inputs.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Nov 6, 2012, 9:40 AM
Post #14 of 34 (5281 views)
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Re: [OHCHUTE] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
pilots most new jumpers have a tendency to flair flare high


OHCHUTE

Nov 6, 2012, 10:12 AM
Post #15 of 34 (5254 views)
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Re: [dragon2] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
pilots most new jumpers have a tendency to flair flare high

When speaking with the skydiving instructor, who knew I was an aircraft pilot, it was not relayed that all new jumpers flare high, at least from what he implied. Not sure why he'd single out a new jumping prospect with pilot expereince if all new jumpers acted likewise. Also, not sure why an aircraft pilot might not have an edge over non aircraft pilot in negotiating when to stall the chute on landing? If stalling is what you do when your feet are about to touch the ground.


theonlyski  (D License)

Nov 6, 2012, 11:57 AM
Post #16 of 34 (5217 views)
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Re: [OHCHUTE] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Also, not sure why an aircraft pilot might not have an edge over non aircraft pilot in negotiating when to stall the chute on landing? If stalling is what you do when your feet are about to touch the ground.

How many students have you seen try to flare the aircraft at 20' with a quick pull on the yoke?


Well, skydiving isn't much different.Wink


An aircraft pilot has an edge because they understand the purpose and 'feel' of a flare. Understanding how and why the canopy flies the way it does, goes a long way.


labrys  (D 29848)

Nov 6, 2012, 12:23 PM
Post #17 of 34 (5198 views)
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Re: [OHCHUTE] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
When speaking with the skydiving instructor, who knew I was an aircraft pilot, it was not relayed that all new jumpers flare high, at least from what he implied.

It's very, very common for new students to flare high. The most common reason that I see for why many new students flare high is that they stare down at the ground on final instead of looking at the horizon. That makes the ground appear to rush up at 'em and it scares 'em.


OHCHUTE

Nov 6, 2012, 1:19 PM
Post #18 of 34 (5161 views)
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Re: [labrys] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Teaching where to look is a good idea. You can actually see where helmet cam'ed jumpers are looking when landing by viewing their Youtube video's.


shorehambeach  (C License)

Nov 6, 2012, 1:26 PM
Post #19 of 34 (5158 views)
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Re: [Remster] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

I fell off my chair reading this remster Smile Smile Smile Smile


labrys  (D 29848)

Nov 6, 2012, 1:55 PM
Post #20 of 34 (5139 views)
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Re: [OHCHUTE] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Teaching where to look is a good idea. You can actually see where helmet cam'ed jumpers are looking when landing by viewing their Youtube video's.

No, you can only see where their cameras are pointing and the general direction of the front of their helmet, not where they're actually looking.


suuz83  (B 716290)

Nov 6, 2012, 5:28 PM
Post #21 of 34 (5077 views)
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Re: [OHCHUTE] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't compare flying under a canopy too much with flying an airplane. It's very different and confusing if you look at flying a canopy from an airplane pilot's perspective when you start jumping.

Just don't worry too much and enjoy your first jump course. And it might be better for you when you leave your flying and flight instructor knowledge at home for that day and start absorbing all the new information instead comparing.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Nov 7, 2012, 9:14 AM
Post #22 of 34 (4934 views)
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Re: [OHCHUTE] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

You don't wanna stall the wing when you land. you just want the wing to be flying almost at the stall speed.

once it stalls wing doesn't carry your weight and you will have harder landing.

most of the student canopy are set with lengthy control line so that they don't stall.

If the wing stalls on you, you simply let your hand back up and wing will start to fly again, givien enough altitude.

I have long arms, so I tune my canopy so I can't reach stall point accidentally when I hold in full break.

There is two processes to land, first stage levels off your canopy and the wing will travel across the ground, second stage is when you give little sharper input to stop that forward speed.

If the second stage is too early/input too sharp the wing will climb back up even, if second stage is too late/ intputing too mushy the wing will just sink into the ground, and plow you in.

If you know how the wing works it will be relatively easier than the most people out there. Pilots do well in skydving, atleast the canopy part. They already know how to set the pattern.


milehigheric  (C License)

Nov 7, 2012, 11:37 AM
Post #23 of 34 (4901 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't trust the visual pictures you have learnt flying aircraft - they are not the same under a canopy. On my first jump I was under radio assistance as most students are. I recall sitting under canopy and saying to myself "really" when I was being given commands especially crosswind and final.

I feel pilots have an advantage in the classroom Because they understand flight in general. The practical skills are so much different however that you can't bring much from a fixed wing environment to your FJC - nor should you.

Just remember your instructors not going to let you up there unless you understand the basic knowledge required to be safe... So don't stress about it now.


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Nov 7, 2012, 1:20 PM
Post #24 of 34 (4851 views)
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Re: [milehigheric] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
feel pilots have an advantage in the classroom Because they understand flight in general. The practical skills are so much different however that you can't bring much from a fixed wing environment to your FJC - nor should you.

+1

My pattern was way too big for skydiving. It took me a long while to get the correct site picture and accept I can't add power to fix a bad glide slope.


adamhildreth  (C 110471)

Nov 7, 2012, 1:58 PM
Post #25 of 34 (4827 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] All this before first landing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I can't add power to fix a bad glide slope.

+1 - very annoying!!!! :-)


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