Forums: Archive: 2013-2015 USPA BOD Elections:
BOD members on WS Rating

 

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NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Nov 3, 2012, 12:10 PM
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BOD members on WS Rating Can't Post

Thomas Noonan III

Kirk Verner

Stewart Reifler

Alan "Buzz" Fink

Sherry Butcher

Jan Meyer

Lawrence E. "Larry" Hill

Michael Mullins

Abbie Mashaal

Richard M. Winstock

W. L. "Jay" Stokes

Eike Helmut Hohenadl

Michael Turoff

I'm getting ready to fill out my ballot. These are the names on it. It says to vote for up to 8. I'd like to avoid voting for the ones who support that wingsuit rating proposal.

Anyone know which of these people are for or against it?

Thanks,
Tony


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Nov 3, 2012, 7:43 PM
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Re: [NSEMN8R] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Tony,
I can help you a bit. At the risk of losing your support i know i am for it. You can read a few hundred posts about why. The only ones on your list i know are not for it is Larry and Mike. All other incumbants are in favor. I do not know about new candidates.

Sorry. I would hope our records would aid you a bit other than this one issue.
Thanks
Rich Winstock


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 3, 2012, 10:10 PM
Post #3 of 53 (4310 views)
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Re: [NSEMN8R] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

 I'd like to avoid voting for the ones who support that wingsuit rating proposal.


In reply to:

Really?

~ That's the ONLY issue you care about...nothing else a BOD member is involved with, or has accomplished really matters to you??

Wow, that's umm ...interesting


CarpeDiem3  (D License)

Nov 4, 2012, 6:22 AM
Post #4 of 53 (4275 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The only ones on your list i know are not for it is Larry and Mike.

There are two "Mike's"; which one is Against and which one For?


stratostar  (Student)

Nov 4, 2012, 6:46 AM
Post #5 of 53 (4268 views)
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Re: [CarpeDiem3] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Larry and Mike. All other incumbants are in favor

Mullins


BigMark  (D 17505)

Nov 4, 2012, 8:28 AM
Post #6 of 53 (4249 views)
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Re: [stratostar] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

Scott Smith the Western Region incumbent is against it, I respect his opinion.


SStewart  (D 10405)

Nov 4, 2012, 9:52 AM
Post #7 of 53 (4238 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hello Tony,
I can help you a bit. At the risk of losing your support i know i am for it. You can read a few hundred posts about why. The only ones on your list i know are not for it is Larry and Mike. All other incumbants are in favor. I do not know about new candidates.

Sorry. I would hope our records would aid you a bit other than this one issue.
Thanks
Rich Winstock

You lost my vote Rich, I will not vote for or endorse any candidate that supports new disipline specific instructor ratings. We don't need it and we dont want it.

It may be just one issue to you but it shows me where your head is at.

If the vote comes back against this thing (as I suspect it will) are you going to keep pushing it anyway? Will the opinion of the membership matter?


Pacific

Nov 4, 2012, 10:06 PM
Post #8 of 53 (4150 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'd like to avoid voting for the ones who support that wingsuit rating proposal.


In reply to:

Really?

~ That's the ONLY issue you care about...nothing else a BOD member is involved with, or has accomplished really matters to you??

Wow, that's umm ...interesting

To some people, it only takes 1 issue to really separate the candidates. In his defense, many of the candidates sound similar and/or somewhat vague in their testimonies. All candidates are good people and want safe wingsuiting, but all aspects of adopting a new rating like this must be considered. For example, have any of the candidates that support the wingsuit program discussed how it will be funded?

There is one particular candidate who mentioned that that they wanted to keep our USPA fees low and work closely with the FAA. I like it! This stood out to me as something good for all of us. But this candidate also owns and operates an 'AAD required' DZ. With him on the board, could we possibly see all USPA affiliated dropzones become 'AAD required' in the near future? Arguably this is another safe move like a WS rating, but then everyone must have that $1400 AAD in every rig they intend to jump. Most jumpers are pro-AAD, but many jumpers still value their right to jump without one. Some jumpers own multiple rigs for different disciplines and cannot afford multiple AADs. I know I'm reaching here. It's not an ADD debate. Just an example of how candidates can be considered or be removed from consideration based on 1 single issue.


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Nov 5, 2012, 3:58 AM
Post #9 of 53 (4134 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'd like to avoid voting for the ones who support that wingsuit rating proposal.


In reply to:

Really?

~ That's the ONLY issue you care about...nothing else a BOD member is involved with, or has accomplished really matters to you??

Wow, that's umm ...interesting

It's not that this is the ONLY thing I care about airtwardo. It's only one issue but, like the other guys said, how a candidate feels about it tells us a lot about their mindset and is probably a good indicator of how they would vote on other issues as well.
Some candidates seem to understand the importance of individual freedom and personal responsibility in skydiving. Others sound like they want to sacrifice these in order to regulate all the risk out of the sport.

I'm just trying to vote for people who have the same values as me.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Nov 5, 2012, 4:46 AM
Post #10 of 53 (4127 views)
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Re: [NSEMN8R] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, (ot directed at anyone specifically)

All I can say is I respect all of your opinions. I do not feel you have followed this topic all that closely. If you had you would recall, I have no wingsuit jumps or I had very limited knowledge of your community. The research and people I reached out to educate myself are in the hundreds. The questionnaires I got out and read are in the hundreds. The phone calls are in the hundreds, the pms, ims, FB messages, twitter conversations are in the hundreds. All in the attempt to understand what the MAJORITY of USPA membership feels. Show me one other BOD member that put this much time into this topic just to make sure I was representing members. My research showed almost 80 percent are in favor of this. That is why I took a stand. I did the requirred work and then stood behind the results. What more one can ask of a person I dont know. Keep in mind much of that was at my own expense. So to be judged for taking a stance on a topic that was researched and believed to be what the majority wanted is a bit disappointing. To go a bit further: I have received hate emails, messages, posts on blogs portray me as the devil of wingsuitting. Real cool, makes me want to call up Simon rent a wingsuit today.

Now, furhter if the opinion poll comes back against it of course I will represent that school of thought and then turn efforts towards bringing two schools of thought together and education. It actually will relieve me of a great burden and having to defend my actions publically.

It seems easy for those to ask one question Are you in favor of a wingsuit instructor rating? and determine whether or not to vote for you. or in terms stated above understand my mindset. My mindset is USPA needs to represent members and I will go to whatever ends to make sure that happens. You people are unreal sometimes, you complain about USPA not reaching out or being out of touch and then when one person trys his best, is available to you 24/7, will listen, explain, inform, educate, you persecute him. It seems like you dont want representation you want a monkey that will vote like minded with you on every topic. If that is the case I dont want your vote because that is not me.

I did not stand up and say "Hey I want to be the wingsuit sub committee chair" I was asked to do it and did it the best I could. If doing my job loses me votes because of the work I did then so beit. Vote for like minded people who have sat idally by, done zero work, taken zero stance, spent zero money, but they agree with you on this one point.

I understand I cant please everyone but if you are going to start blasting away do a few things, 1) know your facts, 2) contact me to verify what you think you know about it. I have posted probably 100 posts explaining every step of the way through this topic from the first time I reached out for help. Title is winsuit/instructor rating under the wingsuit section. read especially the first post.

As far as over regulation; you got the wrong guy. I am not an over-regulation guy by any means. Ask me about the pro rating and how pissed I was I had to get it after doing hundreds of demos. I wasnt happy. But I did it because those on the board at the time put in the time, researched it and felt it was in the best interest of USPA. Now years later, it is considered the norm.

In summation: rather than waste time throwing spears, call me, PM me with your number I will call you. I am ot some boob sittig behind a computer typing away, I am a real live person, who jumps out of planes, and kind of likes it. My cell is 310 750-7767. Unfortunately I am without power for almost a week so my battery charging capabilities is rather low. If I dont answer leave a mesage and I will call you back.

Rich Winstock
USPA
National Director


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Nov 5, 2012, 5:07 AM
Post #11 of 53 (4121 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

Rich, is there a reason you haven't made any Wingsuit jumps as part of your research? Getting out and jumping instead of just trusting others?

I find sitting on the internet gives exposure to only a very small fraction of the Wingsuit community. Getting out to Wingsuit events luckily exposes me to the majority view. If this community were truly just those that invested their time here I and on similar social media I would probably have quit. There is a lot more going on out there but you need to put on a suit and head out to where the gang is hanging.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Nov 5, 2012, 5:15 AM
Post #12 of 53 (4115 views)
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Re: [WickedWingsuits] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

LOL,

I am going to get flamed on this one. I am scared. I am moderately claustrophobic and the thought of not having full movement terrifies me. At least you know I am an honest guy at the cost of being the brunt of some jokes. lol

Rich


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Nov 5, 2012, 7:04 AM
Post #13 of 53 (4096 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for replying Rich. I appreciate your honesty and I respect that you're not afraid to take a position on this publicly.

I'm sure there are issues that we agree on. I can't vote for you because of this one though. I worry that since you support this proposal so enthusiastically, you would also be in favor of similar bureaucracies for freeflying, swooping, camera flying ... I just don't think it's a good path to go down.

Please don't feel like I'm throwing spears or attacking you personally. We just disagree.

If I was going to throw a spear at someone it would be the genius that decided the dude who is afraid of wingsuits should be chair of the USPAs wingsuit subcommittee. Tongue


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 5, 2012, 7:08 AM
Post #14 of 53 (4095 views)
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Re: [NSEMN8R] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks for replying Rich. I appreciate your honesty and I respect that you're not afraid to take a position on this publicly.

I'm sure there are issues that we agree on. I can't vote for you because of this one though. I worry that since you support this proposal so enthusiastically, you would also be in favor of similar bureaucracies for freeflying, swooping, camera flying ... I just don't think it's a good path to go down.

Please don't feel like I'm throwing spears or attacking you personally. We just disagree.

If I was going to throw a spear at someone it would be the genius that decided the dude who is afraid of wingsuits should be chair of the USPAs wingsuit subcommittee. Tongue

Even if this path MIGHT keep WS flying alive in the US?

Matt


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Nov 5, 2012, 7:49 AM
Post #15 of 53 (4089 views)
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Re: [NSEMN8R] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If I was going to throw a spear at someone it would be the genius that decided the dude who is afraid of wingsuits should be chair of the USPAs wingsuit subcommittee

lol there you go common ground.

I will say in defense of the committee every one of them is an I/E with years of instructing experience. If that helps. That is why we decided to rech out for help.


robinheid  (D 5533)

Nov 5, 2012, 9:21 AM
Post #16 of 53 (4072 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'd like to avoid voting for the ones who support that wingsuit rating proposal.


In reply to:

Really?

~ That's the ONLY issue you care about...nothing else a BOD member is involved with, or has accomplished really matters to you??

Wow, that's umm ...interesting

It's not just interesting, Jim, it's intelligent.

The WS position is the "canary in the coal" mine; it clearly shows the mentality of the BOD member or prospective BOD member and how that person will approach other issues, to wit:

Mindlessly expanding the scope of USPA's business and exposing it and its members to exponentially greater liability and cost by taking action without scoping out, much less understanding, the big-picture consequences; or

Cautiously and, yes, intelligently, husbanding the association's resources and taking no action that could squander those resources and/or expose the members to greater liability.

That is what someone's "wingsuit issue" position portends, and thus is is unequivocally intelligent to vote purely on the basis of that issue.

If you doubt me, check out Dr. Lee's email goodbye to the BOD and ask yourself why someone so... intelligent, so experienced, so respected, so financially- and liability-knowledgeable, and so long-serving on the BOD would devote the vast majority of his parting remarks to killing this mindless nonsense?

And if you doubt Dr. Lee, then consider that Mssrs. Hill and Mullins are two of the most knowledgeable, most experienced and wisest of our BOD, so don't you think it's, uh... interesting that they of all people on the BOD oppose this mindless nonsense?

Ditto for Scott Smith, for whom you can't vote, but who is also a very smart guy with wide and deep parachuting experience and a wealth of non-parachuting business and professional experience on which to draw as well. He opposes it too.

Definitely interesting.

44
Cool


robinheid  (D 5533)

Nov 5, 2012, 9:28 AM
Post #17 of 53 (4069 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Thanks for replying Rich. I appreciate your honesty and I respect that you're not afraid to take a position on this publicly.

I'm sure there are issues that we agree on. I can't vote for you because of this one though. I worry that since you support this proposal so enthusiastically, you would also be in favor of similar bureaucracies for freeflying, swooping, camera flying ... I just don't think it's a good path to go down.

Please don't feel like I'm throwing spears or attacking you personally. We just disagree.

If I was going to throw a spear at someone it would be the genius that decided the dude who is afraid of wingsuits should be chair of the USPAs wingsuit subcommittee. Tongue

Even if this path MIGHT keep WS flying alive in the US?

Matt

DEMOLISH that straw man, Matt!

False premise, false choice. Many proactive actions have already been taken at multiple DZs by DZOs and the jumpers themselves to reduce tailstrikes and better coordinate ATC issues -- all without an out-of-scope, none-of-USPA's-business "solution" that will increase costs and liability.

The tailstrike issue is the only thing that could "kill" wingsuiting from airplanes in the US and that issue is something that is only marginally and peripherally addressed by the mindless nonsense being pushed by a select few who have an agenda that ignore's the association's best interests and that, by the chief pusher's own admission, barely even mentioned tailstrikes until it became a hot button from which they hoped to gain rhetorical advantage.

Have you read Dr. Lee's email yet? Hard to believe that someone with your CV would persist in arguing for this mindless nonsense if you had.

44
Cool


(This post was edited by robinheid on Nov 5, 2012, 9:31 AM)


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 5, 2012, 10:45 AM
Post #18 of 53 (4053 views)
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Re: [robinheid] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Thanks for replying Rich. I appreciate your honesty and I respect that you're not afraid to take a position on this publicly.

I'm sure there are issues that we agree on. I can't vote for you because of this one though. I worry that since you support this proposal so enthusiastically, you would also be in favor of similar bureaucracies for freeflying, swooping, camera flying ... I just don't think it's a good path to go down.

Please don't feel like I'm throwing spears or attacking you personally. We just disagree.

If I was going to throw a spear at someone it would be the genius that decided the dude who is afraid of wingsuits should be chair of the USPAs wingsuit subcommittee. Tongue

Even if this path MIGHT keep WS flying alive in the US?

Matt

DEMOLISH that straw man, Matt!

False premise, false choice. Many proactive actions have already been taken at multiple DZs by DZOs and the jumpers themselves to reduce tailstrikes and better coordinate ATC issues -- all without an out-of-scope, none-of-USPA's-business "solution" that will increase costs and liability.

The tailstrike issue is the only thing that could "kill" wingsuiting from airplanes in the US and that issue is something that is only marginally and peripherally addressed by the mindless nonsense being pushed by a select few who have an agenda that ignore's the association's best interests and that, by the chief pusher's own admission, barely even mentioned tailstrikes until it became a hot button from which they hoped to gain rhetorical advantage.

Have you read Dr. Lee's email yet? Hard to believe that someone with your CV would persist in arguing for this mindless nonsense if you had.

44
Cool

How has the major insurance carrier for the majority of Skydive A/C flown in the US responded to this?

Matt


robinheid  (D 5533)

Nov 5, 2012, 11:25 AM
Post #19 of 53 (4041 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Thanks for replying Rich. I appreciate your honesty and I respect that you're not afraid to take a position on this publicly.

I'm sure there are issues that we agree on. I can't vote for you because of this one though. I worry that since you support this proposal so enthusiastically, you would also be in favor of similar bureaucracies for freeflying, swooping, camera flying ... I just don't think it's a good path to go down.

Please don't feel like I'm throwing spears or attacking you personally. We just disagree.

If I was going to throw a spear at someone it would be the genius that decided the dude who is afraid of wingsuits should be chair of the USPAs wingsuit subcommittee. Tongue

Even if this path MIGHT keep WS flying alive in the US?

Matt

DEMOLISH that straw man, Matt!

False premise, false choice. Many proactive actions have already been taken at multiple DZs by DZOs and the jumpers themselves to reduce tailstrikes and better coordinate ATC issues -- all without an out-of-scope, none-of-USPA's-business "solution" that will increase costs and liability.

The tailstrike issue is the only thing that could "kill" wingsuiting from airplanes in the US and that issue is something that is only marginally and peripherally addressed by the mindless nonsense being pushed by a select few who have an agenda that ignore's the association's best interests and that, by the chief pusher's own admission, barely even mentioned tailstrikes until it became a hot button from which they hoped to gain rhetorical advantage.

Have you read Dr. Lee's email yet? Hard to believe that someone with your CV would persist in arguing for this mindless nonsense if you had.

44
Cool

How has the major insurance carrier for the majority of Skydive A/C flown in the US responded to this?

Matt

"They, of course, were happy to see it," wrote Jeff Norris to me on 1OCT when I asked him how the insurer(s) responded to the proactive measures taken in the aftermath of Jeff's earning letter about their displeasure with the tailstikes, i.e., adopting and emphasizing the "3-second-rule," and placing reminder stickers thereabout near the door.

Jeff's response today, 5NOV12, to an email I sent him after your post to see if there's been any change since that message, was: "Nothing new to report."

44
Cool

NOTE: Edited to provide most recent update.


(This post was edited by robinheid on Nov 5, 2012, 11:55 AM)


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 5, 2012, 12:36 PM
Post #20 of 53 (4026 views)
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Re: [robinheid] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

So the sample is ONE DZ?

Matt


robinheid  (D 5533)

Nov 5, 2012, 1:03 PM
Post #21 of 53 (4018 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So the sample is ONE DZ?

Matt

No. Why would you say that?

44
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matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 5, 2012, 1:16 PM
Post #22 of 53 (4014 views)
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Re: [robinheid] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
So the sample is ONE DZ?

Matt

No. Why would you say that?

44
Cool

That was all you presented, one.

Matt


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 5, 2012, 3:35 PM
Post #23 of 53 (3989 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
So the sample is ONE DZ?

Matt

No. Why would you say that?

44
Cool

That was all you presented, one.

Matt

I believe Mr. Norris is the insurer you asked about, NOT a DZ owner.

Quote:
How has the major insurance carrier for the majority of Skydive A/C flown in the US responded to this?

Matt



(This post was edited by kallend on Nov 5, 2012, 3:37 PM)


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 5, 2012, 4:41 PM
Post #24 of 53 (3973 views)
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Re: [kallend] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
So the sample is ONE DZ?

Matt

No. Why would you say that?

44
Cool

That was all you presented, one.

Matt

I believe Mr. Norris is the insurer you asked about, NOT a DZ owner.

Quote:
How has the major insurance carrier for the majority of Skydive A/C flown in the US responded to this?

Matt


I have been so informed, and am up on the right page with the info now. Thank you and to Robin as well.

So now if this is acceptable Standardization for the Insurance folks, ALL insured A/C at those DZ's have to accept and implement this.
That will handle Tail Strikes, hopefully.

How does the GA Pilots and FAA feel about the other issue of WS flights being outside the NOTAM'd radius?

I know the discussions focused on the Tail Strikes, but it was just the "flashy" issue, there is this smaller one to consider too.

Again, maybe a whole rating plan is not needed, but and industry standard for WS flights is. IMO.

Matt


Ron

Nov 6, 2012, 9:36 AM
Post #25 of 53 (3894 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] BOD members on WS Rating [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I do not feel you have followed this topic all that closely

Bullshit. I followed the topic VERY closely. You are supporting doing something that doe snot have to be done to fix a problem that will line the pockets of a few people.

Quote:
You people are unreal sometimes

Insults do not help your position.

Quote:
As far as over regulation; you got the wrong guy. I am not an over-regulation guy by any means.

Your position on this topic proves your comment incorrect.


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