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Downsizing...how much is too much?

 

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baRRRpirate  (B License)

Oct 29, 2012, 12:07 PM
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Downsizing...how much is too much? Can't Post

Im new.
No way around it and I'm not trying to push the envelope a whole lot. The flying part of my current skill level isn't what concerns me a whole lot. While I only have about 40 jumps, I have 2 hours of one on one tunnel time that has helped my body control in flight tremendously. I understand I'm an extreme novice, but with my freefall ability (belly flying) I have a lot of confidence. But that is gravity taking care of itself. The real skill to skydiving in my opinion is canopy control.

Currently I've been jumping (renting) a Silhouette 230. I feel good on this thing, I've spent a lot of time pulling at 5000+ to get the hang of it ie. riser turns, stall point, dives etc...but now I'm looking to fill a container that I purchaced with a Sabre2 210. I wanted to buy a container/ main that would give me hundereds if not a thousand jumps without me getting bored. My landings have been solid. have not crashed in, plf'd or even been close on the Sil 230. I guess my question is; How do I know when i can cut 20 more square ft out and how much different is the semi elliptical compared to the square ram chute Ive been using? Am I ready because I feel ready? As a long time motorcycle racer I've seen my share of crashes due to people thinking they are ready.

my stats are as follows: 6'00''
exit weight of 215


angle228  (B License)

Oct 29, 2012, 12:25 PM
Post #2 of 45 (6156 views)
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Re: [baRRRpirate] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is what I did... It may not be the right path for everyone and it may not even be the BEST path for me.

I had a second hand fairly cheap rig for a year. The main was a Tri190. I was loaded about 1.2:1 at 60 jumps (which according to many is pusing it a little bit.) I had the cash and wanted to make a long term gear investment. So i bought a container that i could really go up or down a lot in.

My I got a Storm 190 (7 cell=smaller pack volume) and put it into a container made for a 9 cell 170.

So if in the future Want to down size I can go from this to a smaller 7 cell, or I can switch to a ZPX 190 9 cell, and then down.

Regardless of how I do it this container will last me at least through my next two sets of canopies. That being said, I probably wont be downsizing any time soon given my lack of currency due to school:-/

** second disclaimer not best path for everyone **


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Oct 29, 2012, 12:28 PM
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Re: [baRRRpirate] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

Use this skill checklist to help determine if your skills are ready for a smaller canopy:

http://www.dropzone.com/...etail_page.cgi?ID=47

Highly suggest that you read all 22 pages of the following before you decide. Many of these drills can be helpful to you.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Oct 29, 2012, 12:38 PM
Post #4 of 45 (6138 views)
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Re: [baRRRpirate] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

Based just off of wingloading/canopy choice a Sabre2 210 is an acceptable canopy at your experience level and weight. Make sure to get a larger size reserve as well!


baRRRpirate  (B License)

Oct 29, 2012, 12:41 PM
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you very much for the article...I've seen the sizing chart before, however, I tend to take generalities into consideration but don't necissarily abide by them. I feel if certain skills are met or not met, that sizing chart can be shifted either way. The article however seems to have a lot of really good info. I will definitly read the entire thing. I have also been reading Canopy and Its Pilot by Brian Gervais


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Oct 29, 2012, 3:17 PM
Post #6 of 45 (6040 views)
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Re: [baRRRpirate] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

[replyhowever, I tend to take generalities into consideration but don't necissarily abide by them. I feel if certain skills are met or not met, that sizing chart can be shifted either way.
I'm always amazed when people say stuff like this. They pay lip service ("oh yeah Brian Germain's book is simply amazing, he's my canopy flight guru and taught me so much, you should buy his book too") but when he publishes a line in the sand chart that literally says "this should never be exceeded by anyone" suddenly he's just talking generalities.

You know, for other people.

What do you have, different physics?

Just go right ahead picking just the advice you like, from the teachers with tens of thousands of skydives who dedicate their lives to teaching this stuff. The other parts aren't so important anyway.


(This post was edited by Joellercoaster on Oct 29, 2012, 3:19 PM)


baRRRpirate  (B License)

Oct 29, 2012, 3:41 PM
Post #7 of 45 (6018 views)
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Re: [Joellercoaster] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

you dont get it. you want to stand on your high horse and think you know me. i have the book. i have the chart. i take all advise into consideration. there are a lot of "lines in the sand" that are created to teach the lowest common denominator, those are guides and recommendations. when i say i steer clear of the generalities its because i dont base my decision solely off of a piece of paper telling me where i should be. there are other factors to take into consideration. with the aid of the chart, the book, practice, coaching advise and critiques, i, as well as my mentors, will decide what is best for me and my advancement in this sport. its not "lip service"...its gathering info.

your comment made you look like big mouthed cocky smartass that i have come to recognize are prevelant on this site.

why post a comment if you dont have something respectful and relevant to say?

im posting on here to get advise from friendly educated people, not to be an asshole. you should take some notes!


voilsb  (D 30581)

Oct 29, 2012, 4:00 PM
Post #8 of 45 (6005 views)
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Re: [baRRRpirate] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

When I had 40 jumps, I went from renting a Silhouette 210 to a Sabre2 190. I weighed about 185 lb at the time. I personally feel I should have stayed on the 210 for another 50+ jumps. I could easily land the Sil/210, but had a lot more trouble with the S2/190.

My opinion is stick with the 230 till you have at least 100 jumps. The Sabre2 IS sportier than the Silhouette. Add to it the heavier wingloading, and it's just a risky decision. You *probably* won't get hurt, but I'd attribute that more to luck than skill, as was my case.

Get where you can land the Sil from half brakes with no issues, where you can turn 45+ degree DURING your landing flare, where you can land it on rears, and consistently (19/20 times) put it within 50 ft of where you want. Pull lower, get comfortable pulling between 3,000 and 3,500 ft and doing the same thing.


wmw999  (D 6296)

Oct 29, 2012, 4:13 PM
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Re: [baRRRpirate] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

No, you don't get it.

You want advice for the above-average, when no one besides yourself (i.e. someone who is an experienced canopy pilot) has determined that you're above average.

You may be above average. However, at 40 jumps, you don't have enough jumps to have established that, and it's not something you establish by yourself anyway. Above average includes not only standing it up, it also includes judgment, knowing when to fall down, an incremental approach to swooping (rather than trying to go big and impressive right from the start), and an awareness of all the other canopies in the air, as well as a whole lot of other variables that need to be in the background before you start to get serious about swooping. Things like wind steadiness, where the burbles tend to be at your DZ, where the ground is least and most bumpy, and a whole lot of other stuff.

You're looking for the folks like you. You might want to head over to the swooping forum down below, but, unfortunately, you'll probably hear much of the same there.

If you really want to swoop, you're better off learning on the slightly larger swooping canopy (I'm told a Sabre 2 is really good for that, because it scales well, and behaves like a swoop canopy), which will let you do much edgier moves with slightly more forgiveness of errors. And yes, you are exceedingly likely to make mistakes. Because it's not an exact science, there are random factors that enter into the landing equation, and you have to deal with them, too.

There are people who haven't hurt themselves seriously even though they started off on too small a canopy. But some of them will tell you taht they really started learning when they began that incremental approach, and sometimes even upsized.



Wendy P.


blueblur  (A 64923)

Oct 29, 2012, 4:18 PM
Post #10 of 45 (5988 views)
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Re: [voilsb] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good advice. I would add this...

Coming from a motorcycle racing background as well, don't downsize until you can wring every last bit of performance and capability out of that canopy. I am about your size as well, my 210 Spectre is my first canopy, flew 230's on student status. The Spectre (and Sabre etc...) is a completely different canopy in terms of performance and flight characteristics.

Downsizing once you can just LAND safely is like riding a Ninja 250 until you can take a curve without your feet down and then hopping on a 600. Big difference between that and learning to drag knee/pegs/exhaust and killing someone's ego on that same bike. Learning on a bigger, more subtle canopy/bike will make you a better pilot on the bigger stuff. (ask me how many people I've embarassed on my old 250...)


baRRRpirate  (B License)

Oct 29, 2012, 4:25 PM
Post #11 of 45 (5982 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

oh i get it wendy. and if people would read my entire post and process it before asking me rhetorical questions like "are my physics different" i wouldn't have to write crap like that. all i want is advise not smartass judgement. in my response i even mention coach critiques and mentors.

my original question was asking about the difference between sabre2 and a silhouette. also what are good indicators for being ready. people on this site seem to want to say how badass they are and how much of a rookie you are vice imparting wisdom and knowledge.

thankfully certain individuals did answer my questions with articles and advise.

not interested in swooping right now, just interested in fitting a 210 in my container and learning tricks and drills to tell when im ready to use it....i mean come on, im not trying to weigh out a huge wingload.

it gets frustrating when you read posts for advise and you see so much condecending comments.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Oct 29, 2012, 5:20 PM
Post #12 of 45 (5952 views)
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Re: [baRRRpirate] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...it gets frustrating when you read posts for advise and you see so much condecending comments.

Yup. And it gets really frustrating when someone asks for advice and then dismisses the good advice that is given because they don't agree with it or like the tone.

You were given the suggestion to read through both Billvon's downsizing checklist and BG's chart/article. The two are pretty much the standard for downsizing.
And you implied that they were "generalizations" aimed at the "lowest common denominator."

Which is the standard response from those who intend to disregard them.

So be careful before you blame everyone on here for wanting "to say how badass they are and how much of a rookie you are."

You are starting to sound like the typical "Madd Skilz" newbie who's "special" "above average" and doesn't need to follow the rules.

That doesn't mean that you are like that, but it sounds like you could be.

And, FWIW, a 210 Sabre2 would be a reasonable next step, and it seems that you are ready for it. But I don't know you and I've never seen you fly. So why would you follow my advice?

This place is great for info on gear, technique, and other "generalizations."

And boobies too. Cool

Specific advice for specific jumpers in specific situations?

Not so much.


voilsb  (D 30581)

Oct 29, 2012, 5:24 PM
Post #13 of 45 (5947 views)
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Re: [baRRRpirate] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
just interested in fitting a 210 in my container and learning tricks and drills to tell when im ready to use it....
Related to this, a Sabre2 210 won't pack a whole lot smaller than a Silhouette 230. The hybrid fabrics help.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Oct 29, 2012, 6:08 PM
Post #14 of 45 (5922 views)
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Re: [baRRRpirate] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Currently I've been jumping (renting) a Silhouette 230. I feel good on this thing, I've spent a lot of time pulling at 5000+ to get the hang of it ie. riser turns, stall point, dives etc...but now I'm looking to fill a container that I purchaced with a Sabre2 210. I wanted to buy a container/ main that would give me hundereds if not a thousand jumps without me getting bored.

When you buy used at a fair price, mains and containers each depreciate about $1 per jump. Assuming you don't buy custom gear in your colors too soon you can spend the same money whether you go through 1 container or 3 and 1 main or 6 in 1000 jumps although it'll probably cost less to go through more mains because that lets you avoid getting to where you need new lines ($200-$300, which can happen in just 500 jumps with Spectra lines that go out of trim) and with good negotiating skills you may even turn a small profit through buying low and selling high.

Health insurance deductibles can be $500 on a good employer provided plan and $5000 on a catastrophic plan, co-insurance can run a few thousand more, and disability insurance usually only replaces 60% of your pre-injury income. This can really add-up, especially when one injury can imply three surgeries over a period of years to get you back to your original state. This disregards how much things like stretching nerves hurts.

Think about that a little bit and you'll realize that trying to buy one parachute and container that you'll grow into isn't buying you anything but could cost you a lot.

In reply to:
exit weight of 215

As people have noted the skills outlined by Bill von Novak and Brian Germain are good pre-requisites for down-sizing. Brian's 1.0 + .1/100 jumps with adjustments dictating larger canopies is a reasonable minimum with bigger being better.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Oct 29, 2012, 6:10 PM)


baRRRpirate  (B License)

Oct 29, 2012, 6:59 PM
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you everyone for the posts. I'm sure I will be hitting up these forums again to ellicit info on certain things so I would like to clear a couple things up to maintain good standing.

I felt it was I was clear when I said I was new. I want to get better at piloting and I take all info, recommendations and coaching seriously. Apparently the idea of me saying that Brian Germain's downsizing chart was a generality struck a nerve with certain people. I understand that there are experienced jumpers that have either been on the recieving end of or had a friend pay for a bad dive so they look out for the new guys best interest with words of wisdom. I think that on this website and in the sport as a whole there is loss of tact in a lot of areas. By saying it was a generality, in my mind, im correct. The way I see it is if the chart says I need a hundred jumps to get where I need to be, thats general...what if I need two hundred. It could also work the other way (not quite that literal, but you get the point). I was pretty clear with saying I take all info into consideration. To me, there is no substitute on paper that will equate skill and on site coaching by instructors.

What my intentions were with this post, was not to seem like I have "mad skillz" but to convey that I take this serious. I want to start on a rig that is slightly under what I'm jumping now and wanted insight. I am constantly talking with other jumpers who I jump with that are experienced but wanted to branch out for other opinions. I AM IN NO RUSH TO DO THIS.

Thanks for the posts with valid info, I'll re-read through all of them periodically. Knowledge and practice will always yield high results.


sundevil777  (D License)

Oct 29, 2012, 7:32 PM
Post #16 of 45 (5877 views)
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Re: [baRRRpirate] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I wanted to buy a container/ main that would give me hundereds if not a thousand jumps without me getting bored.

It is wrong to think ahead of time that you'll be bored under a 210. It may be, but don't predict it ahead of time, and you certainly don't need to worry about the resale value of such a rig.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 29, 2012, 8:32 PM
Post #17 of 45 (5841 views)
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Re: [baRRRpirate] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The way I see it is if the chart says I need a hundred jumps to get where I need to be, thats general...what if I need two hundred. It could also work the other way (not quite that literal, but you get the point).

Another factor that you may or may not be considering is that the 'window' of what's acceptable will shift a little based on jumpers both bigger and smaller than average.

In your case, you're bigger than what I consider 'average' for a male jumper, and as such you might be able to err 'slightly' on the side of a higher WL. The reason being that for you to be at 1 to 1 puts you on a 210 or 220, which is still a fairly large canopy.

Consdier the other end, a small female with an exit weight of 145 lbs, she would end up on a 150 sq ft canopy to be at 1 to 1, and that's a fairly small wing for a new jumper, even at a lower WL.

With all that in mind, the Sabre2 210 doesn't seem like a bad choice. Provided that you (and your instructors) are comfortable with your skills and the idea of you jumping a 210. Choose a day with steady, light to moderate winds, and pull high to give yourself some time under canopy to check the stall point and do some practice flares (ask an instructor for the exact procedure fo both). Pulling high will also let you easily land last, with no traffic around.

I don't get a bad vibe from you 'yet', and said the same in your other thread. Lot's of guys take a turn for the worse once they get a handful more jumps and have some success with new skills. We call them 100-jump wonders, and the basic idea is that they start to overestimate their knowledge and abilities. Don't turn into that guy.


baRRRpirate  (B License)

Oct 29, 2012, 8:49 PM
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Re: [davelepka] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

point taken.

I believe in this:
Plan, execute, analize (how can I make this better)

I feel I'm getting close to the Sabre2 210 I was asking about. I am not ready as of yet in my opinion, but I'm close enough to start to think about it. I like the comment you left in my other thread..."the simple fact is you only get 1 landing per jump."

That is a very simple and smart way to look at it. Until I can control a canopy in any condition. Have it do what I want it to do, and if my 1 landing per jump happens to be downwind off site...can I control it. If the answer is no then stay with what you got.

thanks again for the advice


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Oct 30, 2012, 1:35 AM
Post #19 of 45 (5780 views)
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Re: [baRRRpirate] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

I wrote a fairly long post in here, but looking at it I think I can cut it down a bit.

The important parts of it were

1. I'm sorry I was a ginormous internet hero asshole, and

2. Those really aren't just guidelines.

Keep reading, and remember the Rule:

When you get two conflicting recommendations from very experienced people, always pick the more conservative one.


(This post was edited by Joellercoaster on Oct 30, 2012, 2:32 AM)


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Oct 30, 2012, 6:15 AM
Post #20 of 45 (5693 views)
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Re: [baRRRpirate] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, you've shown good judgment in taking 2 hours of tunnel time to learn how to fly better than most at 40 jumps.

May I suggest employing the same judgement by taking a Canopy Skills course on your existing canopy.


(This post was edited by BIGUN on Oct 30, 2012, 6:16 AM)


nigel99  (D 1)

Oct 30, 2012, 4:58 PM
Post #21 of 45 (5474 views)
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Re: [baRRRpirate] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

Internet can suck for communication. Whatever you do a formal canopy course is invaluable, and I can assure you will get value every time.


Sky_doggy  (C 41295)

Oct 30, 2012, 6:59 PM
Post #22 of 45 (5441 views)
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Re: [baRRRpirate] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi, your profile doesn't say where you are located but if you are in the US I can highly recommend the http://flight-1.com/sport/ courses. I did 101 and 102 this year. I can say that after doing these classes that 'you don't know what you don't know'.

This is coming from someone with 1000's of hours of fixed wing flying who could fly a pattern and land my canopy pretty well where I planned on the DZ from the get go.

I don't want to come off as an ass, but your not special. I down sized from 220 to a 190 at 40 jumps under the guidance of my mentors. This was not an aggressive down size, it put me at 1:1. What happened? I broke my ankle.

Anyhow, keep asking questions my friend and have fun.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 30, 2012, 9:05 PM
Post #23 of 45 (5411 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
May I suggest employing the same judgement by taking a Canopy Skills course on your existing canopy

In all fairness to the OP, he did also start a thread in the canopy control forum where he was looking for info on canopy control courses. I'm 99% sure the other thread came first.

I don't know the guy at all, but from both threads, I don't get the vibe that he's on the wrong path. I do mention this, but back it up by letting him now how quickly some guys veer off the right path, and not to be that guy.


wildcard451  (D License)

Oct 30, 2012, 10:18 PM
Post #24 of 45 (5388 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

When you break a bone, you have found your point. Recover, and start over a size or two up.

If you remove yourself from the gene pool, well, you definitely downsized too much.

/this advice would have me removed from SoFPiDaRF
//when in doubt, downsize and add rotation


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Oct 31, 2012, 6:01 AM
Post #25 of 45 (5310 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Downsizing...how much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

No need to explain, brother... you were on the mark.


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