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gopros and tandem students

 

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jf951  (D License)

Oct 22, 2012, 11:51 PM
Post #1 of 59 (4755 views)
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gopros and tandem students Can't Post

rant GoPro( tndm *stdnts ){

i HATE when people come in and assume they're bringing their own hand mounded/chest mounted/head mounted/what ever the f*** mounted GoPro along with out asking anyone including the instructor who's taking them. i cant be the only that bugs.

return frustration;

} /*end rant*/


piisfish

Oct 23, 2012, 1:40 AM
Post #2 of 59 (4701 views)
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Re: [jf951] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

just plain refuse it. Or ask him to bring it back after his 200th tandem Laugh


BMFin

Oct 23, 2012, 5:26 AM
Post #3 of 59 (4616 views)
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Re: [jf951] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Whats the problem? Why not let the customer wear his go pro glove or harness mount ?


(This post was edited by BMFin on Oct 23, 2012, 5:27 AM)


theonlyski  (D License)

Oct 23, 2012, 5:27 AM
Post #4 of 59 (4610 views)
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Re: [jf951] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
rant GoPro( tndm *stdnts ){

i HATE when people come in and assume they're bringing their own hand mounded/chest mounted/head mounted/what ever the f*** mounted GoPro along with out asking anyone including the instructor who's taking them. i cant be the only that bugs.

return frustration;

} /*end rant*/

if GoPro() = 1 then {
echo "If you would like, we can place your SD card in the instructors hand mounted GoPro for a fee. However, you cannot wear your own camera!";

return cash;

} /*On the other hand, I do joke that it would be funny to allow them to wear it on their head mount (elastic headband that comes with it) with a waiver signed saying they may loose it and we're not responsible. On exit, I could swipe it off their head before it gets blown off and pocket it. Sell to staff members at discounted rates. */


diablopilot  (D License)

Oct 23, 2012, 7:29 AM
Post #5 of 59 (4569 views)
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Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Whats the problem? Why not let the customer wear his go pro glove or harness mount ?

Because they are a student, and students don't wear cameras.


BMFin

Oct 23, 2012, 8:51 AM
Post #6 of 59 (4520 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Whats the problem? Why not let the customer wear his go pro glove or harness mount ?

Because they are a student, and students don't wear cameras.

because it just is..

Now thats a watertight argument !


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Oct 23, 2012, 9:28 AM
Post #7 of 59 (4494 views)
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Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps because a tandem skydive already has enough complexities with the student that don't need to be added to by a camera/snagpoint/distraction?
Because the DZ is in the business of assuring a "safe as possible but high risk" experience?
Fly camera for enough tandems, you eventually see some very 'interesting' moments that (IMO) would only be more complicated by adding a wrist or chest mount camera.
if nothing else, then how about the "The DZ offers outside or hand cam to best assure your safety and great experience?"Tongue


BMFin

Oct 23, 2012, 9:46 AM
Post #8 of 59 (4472 views)
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Re: [DSE] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

I think adding a camera to the instructors hand adds much more risk than adding a camera to a students hand or even better the students harness.


Ron

Oct 23, 2012, 10:00 AM
Post #9 of 59 (4465 views)
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Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Whats the problem? Why not let the customer wear his go pro glove or harness mount ?

Oh, I see you were serious...... OK, assuming you are serious and that you actually wish to have a discussion: How many jumps as a tandem TI do you have?

Me, I have maybe 1,000, maybe more. And I can tell you that tandem skydiving is THE most dangerous type of skydive an experienced jumper can make. You basically create a pilot chute in tow malfunction on purpose and carry a person that, at any time, can freak out on you and start grabbing things. They can swing their hands and hit you, they can smash their head against your head/face/neck (we just recently had a fatality where it seems the students head smashed into the TI and incapacitated him) and they can grab handles, bridles, drogues, your hands.... etc.

There is the additional snag hazard. When you take two heads thinking different things, four arms doing different things, four legs doing different things, and a possibly tumbling ball of shit.... the last thing you need to worry about is a camera. Hell, even the TI wearing a handycam increases the risk and the TI has TOTAL control over where that camera is. We already have incidents where the bridle gets caught by the students or TI's arms, legs, head (yes head)... Adding to that that is not exactly a smart move.

Finally, ignoring the snag hazard (which is HUGE) what happens if they drop the camera and it goes right through someones roof, dents their car, or god forbid hits someone?

All this is with a person who has NO IDEA what they are going to do either. Yet they like to think they will get 'the shot'. They won't, they would be lucky to remember to turn the camera on.

Simply put, the risks of a total unknown participant performing correctly is already there..... ADD a task to them and the chance of them performing that as well makes correctly performing EITHER less likely.

Again, how many TI jumps do you have?


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Oct 23, 2012, 10:10 AM
Post #10 of 59 (4461 views)
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Re: [jf951] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Our manifest deals with that. If they don't my response is usually. "It is a service we sell."
I refuse to engage in any further justification.


Rover  (D 241)

Oct 23, 2012, 10:44 AM
Post #11 of 59 (4445 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Whats the problem? Why not let the customer wear his go pro glove or harness mount ?

Because they are a student, and students don't wear cameras.

Makes it OK in NZ then - because they are 'units, and 'units' can wear whatever they like. Sly


BMFin

Oct 23, 2012, 11:00 AM
Post #12 of 59 (4434 views)
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Re: [Ron] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.dropzone.com/...7;page=unread#unread

Some earlier discussion on the subject.


Ron

Oct 23, 2012, 12:06 PM
Post #13 of 59 (4421 views)
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Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
http://www.dropzone.com/...7;page=unread#unread

Some earlier discussion on the subject.

I have read that thread an nowhere did I see you mention how many TI jumps you have.


chris74  (No 568073)

Oct 23, 2012, 12:46 PM
Post #14 of 59 (4388 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

+ 1
Banzai !
Christophe


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 23, 2012, 1:01 PM
Post #15 of 59 (4374 views)
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Re: [Rover] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Whats the problem? Why not let the customer wear his go pro glove or harness mount ?

Because they are a student, and students don't wear cameras.

Makes it OK in NZ then - because they are 'units, and 'units' can wear whatever they like. Sly

In the USA they are legally "passenger parachutists", not students. (FAR Part 105.45)

However, I agree with Ron that it's a really bad idea.


diablopilot  (D License)

Oct 23, 2012, 1:44 PM
Post #16 of 59 (4351 views)
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Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think adding a camera to the instructors hand adds much more risk than adding a camera to a students hand or even better the students harness.


I think you're wrong, and I think you don't have the experience to make that sort of judgement call.


sky4meplease  (D 30360)

Oct 24, 2012, 4:17 PM
Post #17 of 59 (4206 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Our DZO's have left it to the TI's to determine weather or not it's ok for the tandem students to wear these.

I wouldn't recommend it to a junior TI and I require them to be secure but otherwise they don't bother me too much.

Honestly, it's the young jumpers that want to wear them mostly and in general they are physically fit and leave me a little wiggle room to make sure they don't kill us or someone on the ground with there gear.

FWIW, I have never seen video or stills from these jumps that was worth anything.


normiss  (D 28356)

Oct 24, 2012, 6:50 PM
Post #18 of 59 (4156 views)
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Re: [Ron] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Right here. Spot on.


Whamie  (No License)

Oct 25, 2012, 9:16 AM
Post #19 of 59 (4026 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
rant GoPro( tndm *stdnts ){

i HATE when people come in and assume they're bringing their own hand mounded/chest mounted/head mounted/what ever the f*** mounted GoPro along with out asking anyone including the instructor who's taking them. i cant be the only that bugs.

return frustration;

} /*end rant*/

if GoPro() = 1 then {
echo "If you would like, we can place your SD card in the instructors hand mounted GoPro for a fee. However, you cannot wear your own camera!";

return cash;

} /*On the other hand, I do joke that it would be funny to allow them to wear it on their head mount (elastic headband that comes with it) with a waiver signed saying they may loose it and we're not responsible. On exit, I could swipe it off their head before it gets blown off and pocket it. Sell to staff members at discounted rates. */

LOL! Yo man that made my day!! Good to know there's a few coders out here that skydive too!


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Oct 26, 2012, 9:34 AM
Post #20 of 59 (3896 views)
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Re: [Ron] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Whats the problem? Why not let the customer wear his go pro glove or harness mount ?

Oh, I see you were serious...... OK, assuming you are serious and that you actually wish to have a discussion: How many jumps as a tandem TI do you have?

Me, I have maybe 1,000, maybe more. And I can tell you that tandem skydiving is THE most dangerous type of skydive an experienced jumper can make. You basically create a pilot chute in tow malfunction on purpose and carry a person that, at any time, can freak out on you and start grabbing things. They can swing their hands and hit you, they can smash their head against your head/face/neck (we just recently had a fatality where it seems the students head smashed into the TI and incapacitated him) and they can grab handles, bridles, drogues, your hands.... etc.

There is the additional snag hazard. When you take two heads thinking different things, four arms doing different things, four legs doing different things, and a possibly tumbling ball of shit.... the last thing you need to worry about is a camera. Hell, even the TI wearing a handycam increases the risk and the TI has TOTAL control over where that camera is. We already have incidents where the bridle gets caught by the students or TI's arms, legs, head (yes head)... Adding to that that is not exactly a smart move.

Finally, ignoring the snag hazard (which is HUGE) what happens if they drop the camera and it goes right through someones roof, dents their car, or god forbid hits someone?

All this is with a person who has NO IDEA what they are going to do either. Yet they like to think they will get 'the shot'. They won't, they would be lucky to remember to turn the camera on.

Simply put, the risks of a total unknown participant performing correctly is already there..... ADD a task to them and the chance of them performing that as well makes correctly performing EITHER less likely.

Again, how many TI jumps do you have?

I agree with everything you say here Ron. I'll add one or two thoughts, and experiences.

First, for the first few seconds, which just happen to be the most critical few seconds of the skydive (unless shit goes to shit at some point!), a huge percentage (I'd throw out in excess of 75%) can't manage to remember to arch, or if they do remember, they can't get it right. Throw in another/second thing to think about and if they get either, it would more likely be the camera than the arch.

Our practice in the past has been to allow students to take a camera along if they like, though it was always a still camera. That camera would be stowed for the freefall, and could come out under canopy. I allowed a student to carry a camera out in free fall one time years ago. Immediately off the airplane he had both hands stretched out in front of his face with the camera pointed back at us, and it would seem that his feet were "thinking" the same thing. Both legs bent 90 degrees at the hips and legs straight. That's the shit that you can expect to get when you put a camera on the student.

Throw in the earlier opinion that there will be nothing worth viewing from that camera anyway. So, if we look at as a risk/reward equation. It adds considerably to the risk, with virtually zero reward. There's simply not much justification to allow it.

Students tend to ask if they can take their camera along, primarily because they have virtually no understanding of what's involved in a tandem skydive. They also have no upstanding of how they'll preform on said tandem skydive.

I have around 2500 tandems spread out over 13 years. I've seen quite a lot, some of it was pretty damn scary. We'll often have a feel for how any given student will preform, but most will surprise you. It's actually nice to leave the airplane and for the first couple of seconds thinking 'wow, nice arch dude.' We leave a 182 toward the tail, and let it flip. When we're back to earth in that flip, I generally repeat "arch" in the student's ear. Once in a while I'll say "Nice arch." And sometimes it's "ARCH!"

Those of us with a TI rating and a few tandems under out belt will understand the irony in this. I generally will say to my students when I give them their First Jump Certificate "Thanks for not killing me." To which many will respond "Thanks for not killing me!" and my retort is "I trust me."

Those of with opinions, but few to no tandem skydives should refer to my tag line. I'll repeat it for prosperity, in the even that it's changed at some point.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." Chuck Darwin

Another reference that applies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/...2%80%93Kruger_effect


virtasenmatti

Oct 26, 2012, 4:47 PM
Post #21 of 59 (3846 views)
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Re: [Ron] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
http://www.dropzone.com/...7;page=unread#unread

Some earlier discussion on the subject.

I have read that thread an nowhere did I see you mention how many TI jumps you have.

Hey man, dont take this dude too seriously.

With no experience he knew that navigator will fly better if loose/open your chest strap (even told not to do it, getting banned from that just did not make any sense).

With no experience he also knew that wingload of 1,4 is ok with 50 to 100 jumps. (broken femur did not change his mind).

Now with no experience of tandems he knows if its ok to give camera to student...


BMFin

Oct 31, 2012, 3:24 AM
Post #22 of 59 (3623 views)
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Re: [virtasenmatti] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

Heres a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GHvAOqbDFI


piisfish

Oct 31, 2012, 4:28 AM
Post #23 of 59 (3609 views)
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Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

this is not my idea of a good tandem video... but to each his own


BMFin

Oct 31, 2012, 6:40 AM
Post #24 of 59 (3579 views)
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Re: [piisfish] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
this is not my idea of a good tandem video... but to each his own

IMO it was quite ok. Sure a good TI could make it look better, but I guess safety comes first for this DZ?


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Oct 31, 2012, 7:18 AM
Post #25 of 59 (3557 views)
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Re: [BMFin] gopros and tandem students [In reply to] Can't Post

The TI essentially had to hold her arm in place the entire time. It would have been easier to just have the camera on his hand.


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