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Freefall time

 


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 14, 2012, 1:17 PM
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Freefall time Can't Post

 
Does time prior to deployment in a wingsuit jump count as "freefall time"?


hjumper33  (Student)

Oct 14, 2012, 2:30 PM
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Re: [kallend] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

Nope only the plane ride and after deployment


5.samadhi

Oct 14, 2012, 4:22 PM
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Re: [kallend] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Does time prior to deployment in a wingsuit jump count as "freefall time"?
why dont you just make your clever point and get on with it Laugh


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Oct 14, 2012, 5:09 PM
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Re: [5.samadhi] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
why dont you just make your clever point and get on with it Laugh

He's referring to the comment made by the Red Bull Stratos announcer that Felix was going to have 5 minutes, 30 seconds of freefall time, which "would have set the freefall record", when we all know Medusa holds the record with 9 minutes and 6 seconds of free fall time from 37,000 feet.


Butters  (C 37840)

Oct 14, 2012, 7:14 PM
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Re: [kallend] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Does time prior to deployment in a wingsuit jump count as "freefall time"?

According to the definition of free fall ...

1] The condition of unrestrained motion in a gravitational field.

Yes.

2] The part of a parachute jump before the parachute opens.

Yes.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 14, 2012, 8:59 PM
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Re: [Skwrl] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
why dont you just make your clever point and get on with it Laugh

He's referring to the comment made by the Red Bull Stratos announcer that Felix was going to have 5 minutes, 30 seconds of freefall time, which "would have set the freefall record", when we all know Medusa holds the record with 9 minutes and 6 seconds of free fall time from 37,000 feet.

Yep! Exactly what I was thinking.


crwper  (D 671)

Oct 14, 2012, 10:17 PM
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Re: [Butters] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The condition of unrestrained motion in a gravitational field.

Practically speaking, I think if we count Kittinger's drogue fall as "unrestrained motion", then we should probably also put wingsuit flight in the same category.

Setting aside the comments of the announcers, I love that wingsuit technology has advanced to the point where this is even a question. I love that there are so many shades of gray between "constrained" and "unconstrained" motion. I imagine that, when the record was first set, it seemed relatively obvious what would count as freefall and what wouldn't. We've filled that gap with all kinds of fun activities!

Michael


freeflysoul

Oct 14, 2012, 11:42 PM
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Re: [crwper] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The condition of unrestrained motion in a gravitational field.

Practically speaking, I think if we count Kittinger's drogue fall as "unrestrained motion", then we should probably also put wingsuit flight in the same category.

Setting aside the comments of the announcers, I love that wingsuit technology has advanced to the point where this is even a question. I love that there are so many shades of gray between "constrained" and "unconstrained" motion. I imagine that, when the record was first set, it seemed relatively obvious what would count as freefall and what wouldn't. We've filled that gap with all kinds of fun activities!

Michael
+1 Tongue


5.samadhi

Oct 15, 2012, 7:32 AM
Post #9 of 24 (1994 views)
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Re: [Skwrl] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
why dont you just make your clever point and get on with it Laugh

He's referring to the comment made by the Red Bull Stratos announcer that Felix was going to have 5 minutes, 30 seconds of freefall time, which "would have set the freefall record", when we all know Medusa holds the record with 9 minutes and 6 seconds of free fall time from 37,000 feet.
well I personally do not really think of wingsuit flight as freefall.

I guess if you count glider flight freefall then he didnt break the world record. Most people probably count glider flight semantically as something different than freefall.


Butters  (C 37840)

Oct 15, 2012, 8:05 AM
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Re: [5.samadhi] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
why dont you just make your clever point and get on with it Laugh

He's referring to the comment made by the Red Bull Stratos announcer that Felix was going to have 5 minutes, 30 seconds of freefall time, which "would have set the freefall record", when we all know Medusa holds the record with 9 minutes and 6 seconds of free fall time from 37,000 feet.
well I personally do not really think of wingsuit flight as freefall.

I guess if you count glider flight freefall then he didnt break the world record. Most people probably count glider flight semantically as something different than freefall.

As mentioned previously, wing suits are a new area and thus a grey area. Choose your vocabulary, choose your semantics, make an opinion ... then go back to flying.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Oct 15, 2012, 9:04 AM
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Re: [Butters] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

I think its a bit strange that we make a point of wingsuit being normal freefall when it comes to these records, but cant do the same when it comes to formations and all other things wingsuit related. Otherwise dont make post about undocked 100 ways either[:P


Though wingsuit flying for sure can be classified as freefall I do fully see its a different animal from what was done yesterday.

Longest freefall: Kittinger
Longest wingsuit flight: Florez

Both are accomplishments in their own right that deserve their own spotlight and none of the sad bitching about semantics.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 15, 2012, 9:18 AM
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Re: [mccordia] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think its a bit strange that we make a point of wingsuit being normal freefall when it comes to these records, but cant do the same when it comes to formations and all other things wingsuit related. Otherwise dont make post about undocked 100 ways either[:P


Though wingsuit flying for sure can be classified as freefall I do fully see its a different animal from what was done yesterday.

Longest freefall: Kittinger
Longest wingsuit flight: Florez

Both are accomplishments in their own right that deserve their own spotlight and none of the sad bitching about semantics.

I agree, but at least in the USA you need certain amounts of "freefall time" for various licenses. Right now we count wingsuit time as "freefall time".

So it's not JUST a silly semantic game, we really need to get our collective acts together and decide what counts and what doesn't.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Oct 15, 2012, 9:46 AM
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Re: [kallend] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

In most countries, the licences (next to freefall time) also list various things you need to be able to do (at least here they do) and the licences seem more about acquired skills, with freefall time as a fun fringe extra.

If someone can gather all their proficiency card demands, thats probably more imporant that seeing in which discipline he/she gathered those freefall minutes.

Also doesnt hurt to make your initial post a bit more complete, and not having it sound as a vague facebook update, as to most people here it reads as if you're mostly trying to moan a bit about Felix' jump yesterday as opposed to raising 'a serious USPA issue'Wink


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Oct 15, 2012, 10:29 AM
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Re: [mccordia] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In most countries, the licences (next to freefall time) also list various things you need to be able to do (at least here they do) and the licences seem more about acquired skills, with freefall time as a fun fringe extra.

Right, but that's his point; it's an ambiguity. I personally don't care about these things, but I noted that I would qualify for my "USPA 48 hour freefall wings" (an award USPA gives out) if wingsuit flight is included in "free fall time". I wouldn't qualify for any "wings" (and probably never will) if it isn't included. (Shrug.) If I cared about these sort of things, I'd be all butt hurt right about now, kvetching that I didn't get my wings.

I try to be as anti-semantic as I can, but it's an ambiguity that ought to be answered. Personally, I don't see how you exclude wingsuit freefall time from "freefall", because the line between "big jumpsuit" and "small wings" is kind of blurry. Do camera wings count as a wingsuit (they gots wings!) or a jumpsuit?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Oct 15, 2012, 11:05 AM
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Re: [Skwrl] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

It's been brought up several times in AFFI/E conversations; there was a guy a few years ago who qualified for an AFF rating at around 350 jumps. He'd starting winging at 100 jumps. Since this isn't defined, it's a topic that affects other programs too.


Butters  (C 37840)

Oct 15, 2012, 11:36 AM
Post #16 of 24 (1879 views)
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Re: [DSE] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

In regards to ratings (and possibly achievements), they should change it to distance instead of time. Then it doesn't matter if you fall fast or slow ...


muff528  (D 17609)

Oct 15, 2012, 11:38 AM
Post #17 of 24 (1878 views)
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Re: [kallend] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think its a bit strange that we make a point of wingsuit being normal freefall when it comes to these records, but cant do the same when it comes to formations and all other things wingsuit related. Otherwise dont make post about undocked 100 ways either[:P


Though wingsuit flying for sure can be classified as freefall I do fully see its a different animal from what was done yesterday.

Longest freefall: Kittinger
Longest wingsuit flight: Florez

Both are accomplishments in their own right that deserve their own spotlight and none of the sad bitching about semantics.

I agree, but at least in the USA you need certain amounts of "freefall time" for various licenses. Right now we count wingsuit time as "freefall time".

So it's not JUST a silly semantic game, we really need to get our collective acts together and decide what counts and what doesn't.

Yeah, the line is getting fuzzy, but, when you get right down to it, it's all freefall ...just differences in "configuration". (belly to earth, wingsuit, canopy deployed, head down, etc. Each with its own special terminal velocity.)


crwper  (D 671)

Oct 15, 2012, 1:15 PM
Post #18 of 24 (1828 views)
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Re: [Butters] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In regards to ratings (and possibly achievements), they should change it to distance instead of time. Then it doesn't matter if you fall fast or slow ...

I think this might be the best answer. Consider this:

If we allow things like wingsuits and drogues when calculating freefall time, then--whether you're applying for a Guinness World Record or your AFF rating--the answer will always be to fly the slowest thing that you can get away with. To me, that's an uninteresting game, because it's entirely semantic. We can avoid that game if we use vertical distance fallen instead.

If we don't allow things like wingsuits and drogues, then we are in the realm of "unconstrained motion". In that case, at least in principle, your freefall time and vertical distance are redundant measurements, since you can calculate one from the other. Again, we might as well go with vertical distance as our metric.

I think there is a place for talking about things like "the slowest-falling wingsuit", but it's in a more technical discussion, among qualified individuals, where each person can decide whether or not the answer "counts". For something like records and ratings, you need criteria that are a bit easier to apply objectively. Otherwise, it just gets silly.

Michael


The111  (D 29246)

Oct 15, 2012, 2:00 PM
Post #19 of 24 (1807 views)
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Re: [Skwrl] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I noted that I would qualify for my "USPA 48 hour freefall wings" (an award USPA gives out) if wingsuit flight is included in "free fall time".

Do you have a lot more jumps than the 1200 your profile says, or have you really logged 48 hours in that many jumps? That would be an average of 2.4 minutes per jump. Tongue I know I just hit 24 hours myself with a little shy of 1100 jumps, which is an average of around 80 seconds per jump (this includes 200 pre-wingsuit jumps, the occasional freefly, and lots of 90-100 second flocks, I'd imagine).


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Oct 15, 2012, 6:50 PM
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Re: [The111] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

No, I just suck at math.

Did a back of the envelope calculation, and I forgot to carry the 1 or something. It's about the same as yours.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 15, 2012, 8:09 PM
Post #21 of 24 (1729 views)
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Re: [Skwrl] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No, I just suck at math.

Did a back of the envelope calculation, and I forgot to carry the 1 or something. It's about the same as yours.

Lawyers!!

I'm just about at 60 hours if WS time is included (a lot less if it isn't).


(This post was edited by kallend on Oct 15, 2012, 8:12 PM)


pattersd  (D License)

Oct 16, 2012, 6:10 AM
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Re: [Skwrl] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

must have been using the billable hours calculator! Wink


piisfish

Oct 16, 2012, 6:26 AM
Post #23 of 24 (1657 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Longest freefall : Baumgartner
Longest droguefall: Kittinger
Longest wingsuit flight: Florez

All are accomplishments in their own right that deserve their own spotlight and none of the sad bitching about semantics.
FIFY


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Oct 18, 2012, 9:30 AM
Post #24 of 24 (1527 views)
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Re: [DSE] Freefall time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's been brought up several times in AFFI/E conversations; there was a guy a few years ago who qualified for an AFF rating at around 350 jumps. He'd starting winging at 100 jumps. Since this isn't defined, it's a topic that affects other programs too.

I know quite a few people who have obtained AFF ratings with under 400 jumps. I'm pretty sure Mike Holding (Green Mike) got his rating in Z-hills with just over 300. Most of his FF time was in a wingsuit (which I taught him to fly on his 200th jump), yet he still possessed the "belly" airskills to pass the AFFI course. He did some pre-course tunnel work with Sally Hathaway which helped.

Chuck



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