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Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway?

 

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kojak001  (Student)

Oct 11, 2012, 11:44 AM
Post #51 of 98 (3319 views)
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Re: [curmudgeon] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course its not tantamount to a death sentence but why make a stressful situation worse for a relatively new jumper by chasing the main offsite. You may not agree with the way Sk- handled the situation but making a blanket statement that he should of followed the main offsite is just silly in my opinion. Try to remember what its like to be a newbie in a stressful situation.


skydivecat  (C License)

Oct 11, 2012, 12:44 PM
Post #52 of 98 (3294 views)
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Re: [kojak001] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

On my home DZ, MOST people that chop still land at the DZ. Some of the experienced/d licenses/instructors will land off with their gear, but most people I have seen (granted, i am still very much a noob) opt to land safely then go searching. Also, I don't know about anywhere else, but if someone chops at least two cars usually take off after the main/freebag of the jumper who had the mal. If jumpers on the ground are heads up about it (and of course willing to help a fellow jumper), as soon as the chop is noticed we try to get people chasing the gear so it doesn't become lost. 9 times out of 10 we are able to be sitting waiting for it as it lands (I know in this case darkness was an issue).

My dz does have a rental agreement signed by all jumpers off of AFF stating that they are responsible for all gear they use in the case of damage or a chop. So anybody from self supervised student status to licensed jumpers that rent/borrows any equipment is responsible for its return. It is different from a lot of places (not that I have been many), but the expectation is at least there in writing.

The issue with the guilting, I agree with previous posters advice to just sit down and ask them about it. If you have never had any other bad experiences with them, sit down, air your feeling, and listen to what they have to say. No reason to burn a bridge over a misunderstanding, and if they really are that dickish, then there is nothing stopping you from walking away and finding a new home dz.


(This post was edited by skydivecat on Oct 11, 2012, 12:50 PM)


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Oct 11, 2012, 2:42 PM
Post #53 of 98 (3270 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

This sport has gone to hell in a hand basket. When and where I started jumping, there would have been 4 people headed to get the main as soon as they stood and had a line on where it landed. The jumper that chopped it would have looked till dark and been back the next day if not found.

The DZO left his pants down with an unclear policy. The OP needs to man up and either go find the canopy or pay a reasonable depreciated cost for it.


-SK-  (A License)

Oct 11, 2012, 7:18 PM
Post #54 of 98 (3203 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

From what I understand they've located the canopy. The only reason I didn't come back during the week was because I did not have (and could not get) those days off, otherwise I would have.

What I don't get is why there aren't insurance policies covering the rental rigs; when I rent a car from Enterprise or wherever I can pay a little extra for an insurance policy that they have through an outside company. Why not do the same thing with rental rigs and require jumpers to purchase it or at least require A-licenses and below to purchase it. Gear is covered; inexperienced jumpers remain safe; insurance companies continue to make obscene amounts of money; all is well with the world.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Oct 12, 2012, 5:23 AM
Post #55 of 98 (3131 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

 As someone who has rented gear out for over 25 years, the cost of it is built into the gear rental. If someone chops it and it is lost or damaged then it is covered by the rental they pay.

Of course I would be annoyed about it, but if comes down to it, I would be far more annoyed at having to deal with an accident or fatality because someone didn't chop.

Having said that, I would expect them to help in the search if one is necessary, but if they didn't, I wouldn't be too upset.

The bits that usually get lost are things like ripcords and freebags, although as was pointed out, a quick fli in a microlight usually turns up bits and pieces.....the local kids always know there is a small cash reward if they return any lost gear, and that usually works pretty well.

The DZO/Jumpmaster should always have a pretty good idea of where the spot is, and the windline, allied to people on the ground taking note of where gear disappears from view usually means its not hard to find as long as it doesn't land in thick bush or water.....

Anyone who tries to put a guilt trip on someone for chopping a canopy needs a swift kick in the nuts. People have been killed because they didn't chop a canopy for fear of being bollocked.

Losing gear is one of the risks you take if you rent gear.


Amazon  (D License)

Oct 12, 2012, 9:16 AM
Post #56 of 98 (3094 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The DZO/Jumpmaster should always have a pretty good idea of where the spot is, and the windline, allied to people on the ground taking note of where gear disappears from view usually means its not hard to find as long as it doesn't land in thick bush or water.....

This!!!
... I have watched more than a few chops and getting a line on where the canopy is coming down is key. Take note of the any landmarks in the background with some other point in the foreground. Here on the WET side of this state we have some pretty thick gnarly "brush" and I managed to recover several canopies including a student canopy from some of the thickest crap I have ever crawled thru. The blackberry bushes were bad enough but the 6' high stinging nettles as it was getting dark... just made my f@#$ing day .


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Oct 12, 2012, 10:15 AM
Post #57 of 98 (3070 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just my $0.02 -

At my old DZ, the waiver clearly stated that the jumper was responsible for any damage or loss or anything beyond "normal wear and tear."

BUT...
Students were told to chop a bad canopy. Period.
The line went pretty much like "If you pull the handle on the ground, on purpose or accidentely, you owe for the repack. But if you need to chop it, chop it. We don't charge for that. Do not think for even one moment about the cost if you are in the air." And while we could have charged for lost handles, freebags ect, we never did.
We usually had the "usual suspects" watching from the ground and they would all spread out to get bearings on the canopy and freebag. The pilot would go up with a couple extra pairs of eyeballs to spot it if we couldn't find it right away.
It was expected (and made clear) that students were to help locate any lost gear. Some of them thought the low-level airplane ride was really fun too.


rss_v

Oct 19, 2012, 2:55 AM
Post #58 of 98 (2966 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've never had a cut away but another relatively new jumper (<50 jumps, afaik) at my DZ has. Apparently he got his pilot chute out but nothing else followed, and after a certain amount of time he went for his reserve. He apparently got a lot of stick for it on the ground, with staff saying he should have "tried harder" to free things up, tilting to get the pliot chute into clean air (if that was the problem). He was a bit annoyed at the reaction he got to it, understandably.

A lot of what we learned in AFF groundschool doesn't apply in practice, or is unofficially unofficial, if you know what I mean. Anyone following the guidelines and rules exactly would quickly make himself unwelcome at the DZ.


devildog  (C 40302)

Oct 19, 2012, 4:37 AM
Post #59 of 98 (2939 views)
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Re: [rss_v] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've never had a cut away but another relatively new jumper (<50 jumps, afaik) at my DZ has. Apparently he got his pilot chute out but nothing else followed, and after a certain amount of time he went for his reserve. He apparently got a lot of stick for it on the ground, with staff saying he should have "tried harder" to free things up, tilting to get the pliot chute into clean air (if that was the problem). He was a bit annoyed at the reaction he got to it, understandably.

A lot of what we learned in AFF groundschool doesn't apply in practice, or is unofficially unofficial, if you know what I mean. Anyone following the guidelines and rules exactly would quickly make himself unwelcome at the DZ.
well, if there's one thing you have with a pilot chute in tow, is lots of time to deal with it /sarcasm.


beeman  (A 65979)

Oct 19, 2012, 9:35 AM
Post #60 of 98 (2891 views)
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Re: [devildog] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I've never had a cut away but another relatively new jumper (<50 jumps, afaik) at my DZ has. Apparently he got his pilot chute out but nothing else followed, and after a certain amount of time he went for his reserve. He apparently got a lot of stick for it on the ground, with staff saying he should have "tried harder" to free things up, tilting to get the pliot chute into clean air (if that was the problem). He was a bit annoyed at the reaction he got to it, understandably.

A lot of what we learned in AFF groundschool doesn't apply in practice, or is unofficially unofficial, if you know what I mean. Anyone following the guidelines and rules exactly would quickly make himself unwelcome at the DZ.
well, if there's one thing you have with a pilot chute in tow, is lots of time to deal with it /sarcasm.

definitely. best part about a PCIT.

And while I am a very low time jumper who hasn't had a chop, what in the world FJC rules are you referring to that shouldn't be applied in practice? I'm just curious. My understanding is that everything in the FJC is based on more experience than any one person will have in this sport. As are the emergency procedures.

And what is your alternative to those things? Those rules are drilled into you so you have a plan hopefully without having to waste altitude thinking about what you should do. Are there "fixes" like trying to free the bag manually, sure there are, with a fair amount of added risk in most cases - not the least of which is loss of altitude awareness trying to "fix" a malfunction on the part of a low time jumper. An experienced jumper might feel comfortable and have the skills required to do something like that, but it's a different ballgame with low time.

If it's pilot chute hesitation then sure a look back and rolling side to side IF ALTITUDE PERMITS are the appropriate action but so is going to the reserve by decision altitude. For any jumper.

He should help look for the gear at a minimum. Without a doubt. Share financial burden if that's the DZO's policy. But what's the use not chopping so you won't have to pay or deal with people giving you crap if you make it down alright?


(This post was edited by beeman on Oct 19, 2012, 9:42 AM)


devildog  (C 40302)

Oct 19, 2012, 3:43 PM
Post #61 of 98 (2820 views)
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Re: [beeman] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

definitely. best part about a PCIT.

And while I am a very low time jumper who hasn't had a chop, what in the world FJC rules are you referring to that shouldn't be applied in practice? I'm just curious. My understanding is that everything in the FJC is based on more experience than any one person will have in this sport. As are the emergency procedures.

And what is your alternative to those things? Those rules are drilled into you so you have a plan hopefully without having to waste altitude thinking about what you should do. Are there "fixes" like trying to free the bag manually, sure there are, with a fair amount of added risk in most cases - not the least of which is loss of altitude awareness trying to "fix" a malfunction on the part of a low time jumper. An experienced jumper might feel comfortable and have the skills required to do something like that, but it's a different ballgame with low time.

If it's pilot chute hesitation then sure a look back and rolling side to side IF ALTITUDE PERMITS are the appropriate action but so is going to the reserve by decision altitude. For any jumper.

He should help look for the gear at a minimum. Without a doubt. Share financial burden if that's the DZO's policy. But what's the use not chopping so you won't have to pay or deal with people giving you crap if you make it down alright?

http://www.uspa.org/...168/Default.aspx#969

Quote:
Total Malfunction

1. Identification

(a) A total malfunction includes deployment handle problems (unable to locate or extract the main parachute deployment handle), pack closure, and a pilot chute in tow.

(b) If altitude permits, the jumper should make no more than two attempts to solve the problem (or a total of no more than two additional seconds).

2. Procedures:

(a) In the case of no main pilot chute deployment (e.g., missing or stuck handle, ripcord system container lock), deploy the reserve.

(b) hand-deployed pilot chute in tow malfunction procedures (choose one):

(1) For a pilot-chute-in-tow malfunction, there are currently two common and acceptable procedures, both of which have pros and cons.

(2) An instructor should be consulted prior to gearing up, and each skydiver should have a pre-determined course of action.

Pilot chute in tow procedure 1:
Pull the reserve immediately. A pilot-chute-in-tow malfunctions is associated with a high descent rate and requires immediate action. The chance of a main-reserve entanglement is slim, and valuable time and altitude could be lost by initiating a cutaway prior to deploying the reserve. Be prepared to cutaway.

Pilot chute in tow procedure 2:
Cut away, then immediately deploy the reserve.Because there is a chance the main parachute could deploy during or as a result of the reserve activation, a cutaway might be the best response in some situations.

Bolding mine. I don't see any reason to deviate from one of those two


(This post was edited by devildog on Oct 19, 2012, 3:44 PM)


beeman  (A 65979)

Oct 19, 2012, 6:07 PM
Post #62 of 98 (2782 views)
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Re: [devildog] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

http://www.uspa.org/...168/Default.aspx#969

Quote:
Total Malfunction

1. Identification

(a) A total malfunction includes deployment handle problems (unable to locate or extract the main parachute deployment handle), pack closure, and a pilot chute in tow.

(b) If altitude permits, the jumper should make no more than two attempts to solve the problem (or a total of no more than two additional seconds).

2. Procedures:

(a) In the case of no main pilot chute deployment (e.g., missing or stuck handle, ripcord system container lock), deploy the reserve.

(b) hand-deployed pilot chute in tow malfunction procedures (choose one):

(1) For a pilot-chute-in-tow malfunction, there are currently two common and acceptable procedures, both of which have pros and cons.

(2) An instructor should be consulted prior to gearing up, and each skydiver should have a pre-determined course of action.

Pilot chute in tow procedure 1:
Pull the reserve immediately. A pilot-chute-in-tow malfunctions is associated with a high descent rate and requires immediate action. The chance of a main-reserve entanglement is slim, and valuable time and altitude could be lost by initiating a cutaway prior to deploying the reserve. Be prepared to cutaway.

Pilot chute in tow procedure 2:
Cut away, then immediately deploy the reserve.Because there is a chance the main parachute could deploy during or as a result of the reserve activation, a cutaway might be the best response in some situations.

Bolding mine. I don't see any reason to deviate from one of those two

+1


(This post was edited by beeman on Oct 19, 2012, 6:08 PM)


hybrid59

Oct 19, 2012, 11:59 PM
Post #63 of 98 (2726 views)
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Re: [-SK-] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am new to the sport, but am actually totally shocked by the reaction of the veterans of this forum. I have been a commercial airplane and helicopter pilot for more time than I would like to admit.

So I rent a rig from a said DZO and the packer didn't pack my rig properly, I cut away and am supposed to feel guilty for it. REALLY! I compare that to my said company appointed engineer F*****g up and be expected to to pick up the tab for the multi-milion dollar helicopter.

Somebody please explain the logic behind this reasoning.................

BTW. I have heard the monetary logic from more times than I care to remember.

Seriously this just baffles me.
In reply to:


rss_v

Oct 20, 2012, 2:17 AM
Post #64 of 98 (2705 views)
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Re: [beeman] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And while I am a very low time jumper who hasn't had a chop, what in the world FJC rules are you referring to that shouldn't be applied in practice? I'm just curious. My understanding is that everything in the FJC is based on more experience than any one person will have in this sport. As are the emergency procedures.

And what is your alternative to those things? Those rules are drilled into you so you have a plan hopefully without having to waste altitude thinking about what you should do. Are there "fixes" like trying to free the bag manually, sure there are, with a fair amount of added risk in most cases - not the least of which is loss of altitude awareness trying to "fix" a malfunction on the part of a low time jumper. An experienced jumper might feel comfortable and have the skills required to do something like that, but it's a different ballgame with low time.


What I mean is that if you did everything by the book, you'd never fit in with the DZ "machine" as it runs day to day, commercially and socially. No time for formal gear checks, hurry up and get your fucking kit on - someone will eye it over for you in the pen. Want to check the spot? Fuck that, we've got 14 people behind you so hurry up and get out. Wind's picking up a bit, feeling nervous? Don't be a pussy, you're on the manifest so get on the plane.
Decide to cut away? No matter what, you didn't need to.


(This post was edited by rss_v on Oct 20, 2012, 2:21 AM)


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Oct 20, 2012, 5:55 AM
Post #65 of 98 (2670 views)
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Re: [hybrid59] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you're a student and you have a cutaway you probably won't be held accountable for any missing gear. Once you're a licensed jumper you are responsible for any gear you damage or lose! Doesn't matter if you had a packer pack it. A lot of times newer jumpers cause malfunctions that have nothing to do with how it was packed. Typically because they're not very good at deploying stable, even though you probably think you are.


hybrid59

Oct 20, 2012, 10:25 AM
Post #66 of 98 (2628 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Alright then, assuming the jumper is belly to earth and not turning during deployment. What could he do to induce a malfunction?
In reply to:


Deyan  (D 322)

Oct 20, 2012, 11:14 AM
Post #67 of 98 (2617 views)
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Re: [hybrid59] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Alright then, assuming the jumper is belly to earth and not turning during deployment. What could he do to induce a malfunction?
In reply to:

lazy PC throw to start with


(This post was edited by Deyan on Oct 20, 2012, 11:15 AM)


dragon2  (D 101989)

Oct 20, 2012, 11:24 AM
Post #68 of 98 (2609 views)
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Re: [hybrid59] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Alright then, assuming the jumper is belly to earth and not turning during deployment. What could he do to induce a malfunction?
In reply to:

We've had people cut away because they couldn't undo the toggles (they worked fine...), because they stuck their hands in toggles/brake line loops causing knots, not slowing down enough after freefly can cause opening issues, lines catching on camera equipment (often because people look up during deployment), handles getting dislodged during exit or freefall, holding on to the pilot chute for too long causing the bridle to wrap around their arm, spinning up the canopy by turning too fast or stalling it, dropping a shoulder during opening or opening head-low.

These just all off the top off my head. There's probably more ways Wink
And none of the above are the packer's fault.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Oct 20, 2012, 12:08 PM
Post #69 of 98 (2588 views)
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Re: [hybrid59] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Alright then, assuming the jumper is belly to earth and not turning during deployment. What could he do to induce a malfunction?
In reply to:

You are throwing a folded up wad of fabric into a 120mph wind stream, shit happens sometimes. If you can't deal with that you should be jumping.

As for the way the rental system works, you should probably unpack the rig and repack it yourself if you plan to blame the packer for a possible malfunction.


devildog  (C 40302)

Oct 20, 2012, 2:00 PM
Post #70 of 98 (2568 views)
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Re: [rss_v] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What I mean is that if you did everything by the book, you'd never fit in with the DZ "machine" as it runs day to day, commercially and socially. No time for formal gear checks, hurry up and get your fucking kit on - someone will eye it over for you in the pen. Want to check the spot? Fuck that, we've got 14 people behind you so hurry up and get out. Wind's picking up a bit, feeling nervous? Don't be a pussy, you're on the manifest so get on the plane.
Decide to cut away? No matter what, you didn't need to.

Where are you jumping and might I suggest finding a new dz?


hybrid59

Oct 20, 2012, 2:13 PM
Post #71 of 98 (2567 views)
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Re: [dragon2] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
We've had people cut away because they couldn't undo the toggles (they worked fine...), because they stuck their hands in toggles/brake line loops causing knots, not slowing down enough after freefly can cause opening issues, lines catching on camera equipment (often because people look up during deployment), handles getting dislodged during exit or freefall, holding on to the pilot chute for too long causing the bridle to wrap around their arm, spinning up the canopy by turning too fast or stalling it, dropping a shoulder during opening or opening head-low.

These just all off the top off my head. There's probably more ways Wink
And none of the above are the packer's fault.

Thanks for taking the time to explain that dragon2, I always assumed (apparently incorrectly) that the majority of malfunctions were rigging related. I guess some reasearch on my part is warranted, any related links on the subject would be appreciated.

Thanks for your input too CSpenceFLY, I got suspicious after the 20+ pages of waivers that I signed before the AFF that perhaps there might be a bit of risk involved Wink I do agree though that packing your own rig would remove any question as to who takes responsibilty of the rental rig belongs to.


(This post was edited by hybrid59 on Oct 20, 2012, 5:12 PM)


hybrid59

Oct 20, 2012, 10:49 PM
Post #72 of 98 (2480 views)
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Re: [hybrid59] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess some reasearch on my part is warranted, any related links on the subject would be appreciated.

Scratch that obviously there is lots of information available on the subject.


rss_v

Oct 21, 2012, 1:36 AM
Post #73 of 98 (2450 views)
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Re: [devildog] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Where are you jumping and might I suggest finding a new dz?

Nah, I accept that that's how things work. In any field, in fact. Whenever you start a new job, for example, perhaps you receive training on the official and proper way to do things, but then when you get into it you see that in reality everything would grind to a halt if people followed the rules.


devildog  (C 40302)

Oct 21, 2012, 4:56 AM
Post #74 of 98 (2434 views)
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Re: [rss_v] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Where are you jumping and might I suggest finding a new dz?

Nah, I accept that that's how things work. In any field, in fact. Whenever you start a new job, for example, perhaps you receive training on the official and proper way to do things, but then when you get into it you see that in reality everything would grind to a halt if people followed the rules.

That's not how things work (in my experience), and running with your analogy, some employers are crap/dangerous and you need to leave. On your list specifically:

"No time for formal gear checks, hurry up and get your fucking kit on - someone will eye it over for you in the pen." What DZ won't let you do / give you grief over a full gear check on your own rig before you put it on? Either your manifesting when you aren't ready (which I can see them being annoyed at if the next load is in 2 mins) or this isn't right.

"Want to check the spot? Fuck that, we've got 14 people behind you so hurry up and get out." Are you taking 10 mins to check the spot? Or are they literally saying if the light turns green you just jump like a lemming? If they are forcing the latter, well, see above. If you are being slow for whatever reason, maybe you should let someone else do the spot until you're comfortable and quick.

"Wind's picking up a bit, feeling nervous? Don't be a pussy, you're on the manifest so get on the plane. " No DZ should ever force / pressure you into jumping for whatever reason. On winds especially, you don't want to be under canopy and wishing you were on the ground. It's not a good feeling.

"Decide to cut away? No matter what, you didn't need to." This can contribute to people fighting with a bad main for the rest of their life. Why do you want to be around a dz that does this? There's a difference between a DZO being perturbed at someone chopping because toggles were stuck, and say, someone chopping over a bunch of broken lines, stepthrough, etc.


nigel99  (D 1)

Oct 21, 2012, 5:02 PM
Post #75 of 98 (2340 views)
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Re: [rss_v] Does your DZ try to guilt you if you have a cutaway? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Where are you jumping and might I suggest finding a new dz?

Nah, I accept that that's how things work. In any field, in fact. Whenever you start a new job, for example, perhaps you receive training on the official and proper way to do things, but then when you get into it you see that in reality everything would grind to a halt if people followed the rules.

Sadly that is pretty true. But if people stand their ground and don't compromise, eventually a safer sport prevails. I accept that a single person trying to follow the rules is probably like a fart in a thunderstorm though.


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