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Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening?

 

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lepidoctora  (C 3681)

Oct 2, 2012, 9:18 PM
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Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? Can't Post

I'm jumping a Safire2 149 and loving it, but it takes a lot of altitude to open! I don't have an electronic altimeter, but on the last few jumps I'd peek at my altimeter after the canopy was inflated and I'm pretty sure it's taking somewhere between 800-1000 ft to open up. (Once I was already in the vertical position and looked up at only three inflated cells. It's really cool to watch it open up, but I'd rather have inflation than faith).

Anyway, I'm no expert, but this kind of alarms me. Most people at my DZ pull at 3500, so this inches mighty close to my personal hard deck of 2500.

Any tips on packing a Safire2 to open faster? (Not HARDER, I like my gentle openings, just in less altitude.) We pro pack only at my DZ... I don't want to be the noob who tries psycho packing and eats the dirt because nobody can watch me to make sure I'm doing it right.

A perfunctory search turns up something about not rolling the nose. If you don't roll the nose doesn't the canopy fall apart when you're trying to get it in the bag?

Edit: Also my end cells seem to be squashed closed all the time and it makes me nervous and squirrelly because what if the snivel is too long AND I have asymmetrically closed end cells AND I'm low?


(This post was edited by lepidoctora on Oct 2, 2012, 9:22 PM)


Quagmirian  (A 110392)

Oct 2, 2012, 9:40 PM
Post #2 of 26 (4544 views)
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Re: [lepidoctora] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have never once rolled the nose on any packjob, only the tail. I have never had long openings either, about 500 feet at a guess.


hyper172  (D License)

Oct 2, 2012, 9:49 PM
Post #3 of 26 (4539 views)
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Re: [lepidoctora] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't see anything that I would change about your description of the way your canopy is opening. The safire and Crossfire are the best opening canopies on the market IMUO. 800-1000ft is perfect, no c-spine injuries or other back problems in your future. However, you can always pick up an older sabre 150 for a couple hundred bucks :)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Oct 2, 2012, 9:56 PM
Post #4 of 26 (4536 views)
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Re: [lepidoctora] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

Regarding the nose: You're thinking about rolling the tail, once it is wrapped around the nose. On most canopies the nose inlets aren't wrapped at all; but they have occasionally been rolled on particularly hard opening canopies.

One can roll a tail really well with a lot of tight rolls to slow the opening. (Using small diameter "tight" rolls so as not to use up too much length of tail in the rolls.) Or for faster openings, just do a couple loose rolls, just enough to help hold the pack job together while one is grasping the roll while placing the canopy on the ground.

Before the tail rolls cover it, the nose of the canopy is facing you while packing. A standard technique for speeding the opening is to keep the nose fairly far out, not pushing it back much into the pack job. But one can't introduce a lot of variation there as far as positioning the nose goes.

Psycho packing is only a small (but significant) variation on pro packing, so it isn't that foreign. On the other hand, having someone local to help out is quite valuable. However, psycho packing is used both as an aid to packing control, and to make openings slower / softer, so it isn't that likely to the be thing for you.

As for asymmetrically closed end cells, as long as the canopy isn't snapping into a turn so fast that it has any chance of line twists, it isn't a problem with the hard deck. Sure, one can worry about what direction one will be facing, but it isn't like some real malfunction, so busting your hard deck with only that issue, isn't a big deal.

But I can't help you with anything specific to the Safire2. Or just get used to being open lower. :-)


Maksimsf  (B 37743)

Oct 2, 2012, 10:12 PM
Post #5 of 26 (4531 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

Leave the fast openings for your reserve and enjoy your main slow openings. A lot of older guys will tell you here that if their main takes more then 500 ft. to open - it's a malfunction Sly


lepidoctora  (C 3681)

Oct 3, 2012, 4:54 AM
Post #6 of 26 (4461 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

You're right, I am thinking about rolling the tail. I'd imagined that portions of the nose ended up in the roll, but actually thinking about the packjob clearly reveals that it doesn't (or shouldn't).

I have been using lots of small tight rolls on the tail, so on the next job I'm going to try some loose rolls. I don't want to have nasty short hard openings, just to open closer to the 800 feet side of my 800-1000 foot opening rather than the 1000 foot side.

So far the closed end cells have been symmetrical or symmetrical enough to be good to me so that I open without a spin. Had line twists once, but that was definitely body position, because I remember twisting a little to look behind me as I realized I was tracking away from the landing zone.


(This post was edited by lepidoctora on Oct 3, 2012, 4:56 AM)


skydude2000  (B 5843)

Oct 3, 2012, 5:53 AM
Post #7 of 26 (4420 views)
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Re: [lepidoctora] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

Pack it slider down ;) That'll give you a REAL quick opening. I used to roll the nose on the Sabre 190 I used to jump to slow the openings. What exactly are you doing with the nose? Splitting it? Rolling it? Tucking it into the centre? If you leave the nose a little bit exposed, and don't do anything with it, that can speed up your openings.

I do that with my Spectre sometimes if I'm getting out low. Ask a rigger or an experienced packer if they think that might help :)


DougH  (D License)

Oct 3, 2012, 5:53 AM
Post #8 of 26 (4420 views)
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Re: [lepidoctora] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

It is a real fine line between speeding up an opening, and get a slammer opening that you weren't hoping for.

Based n past experience with Pilot canopies that also open slow you can do a few things to help speed up the openings:

Roll the tail less and make your rolls less tight.

When you quarter the slider you can put more of the slider forward (away from you in a propack) this should block less air from the nose on opening.

You can pull the nose forward a bit when you let it hang after letting going of it with your knees. You shouldn't be pushing it in to the packjob, or rolling it at all.

Regardless of what you do make sure the slider stays at the slider stops, because you don't want to get whacked!


(This post was edited by DougH on Oct 3, 2012, 5:55 AM)


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Oct 3, 2012, 6:06 AM
Post #9 of 26 (4404 views)
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Re: [lepidoctora] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

The Safire (of which I have the most experience), Sabre 2, and Pilot are three of the most reliable opening canopies (IMO - since those are my most jumped canopies).

The thing you're missing is the "consistency." It sounds like the openings are consistent and that's what you want. Now, with 71ish jumps, we can appreciate your concerns about being on the bottom end of your canopy opening and in proximity of your hard deck.

A couple of suggestions:

1, Please take into account that while you're dumping at 3500, one question is how long from 3500 to pitching out the PC are you actually taking? A couple of seconds at level and you're really not pitching until 3K, A couple of seconds at track mode and you may really not be pitching until < 3K, so you may have the 500-800 foot opening you're looking for, but not pitching fast or flat enough.

2. For awhile communicate with those on the dive that you'll be pulling at 4K and over the next 50-100 jumps; be watching the opening characteristics of your canopy. I time, you will learn your canopy's "Consistency" and learn of any variations in that opening characteristic that would warrant emergency procedures - faster when you go back to your normal opening altitude.

3. This is the last resort after testing the first two. Check with your rigger about a smaller slider. With Icarus, I've had to both upsize and downsize the slider. On one canopy the openings were so swift that I had to get a larger one to slow things down a bit. In another instance, when I was doing big way camps, it's not unusual for certain rings to have to dump at 2.5-2K and in that case, I downsized my slider for a much faster opening.

Take the first two into account and learn your canopy's opening characteristics and in time, you'll probably finds that it works for you and please keep us posted on any changes you make and their results so others at your skill level have additional information on your path to success.

Blue Skies,


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Oct 3, 2012, 6:55 AM
Post #10 of 26 (4377 views)
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Re: [lepidoctora] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

If most people at your dz pulled at 2500 what would you do? If your personal hard deck is 2500 you should pull higher.


woppyvac  (D 33147)

Oct 3, 2012, 7:00 AM
Post #11 of 26 (4372 views)
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Re: [lepidoctora] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

When Pro Packing - before you start to roll the tail around your flaked canopy make sure the nose (which was between your legs) isn't pushed INTO your flaking. You don't want to push the nose into the middle of your lines.

Also, you can take the nose (which was between your legs) and flake it too. It's a nine cell so - four cells to the left and four to the right which would leave the middle cell more exposed. That should help increase your opening speed a lil... It's the same method for reserves.


jackwallace  (Student)

Oct 3, 2012, 7:26 AM
Post #12 of 26 (4352 views)
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Re: [lepidoctora] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

Are you counting, once you let go of the pilot chute. It shows you having 71 jumps. You may just be coming more aware of whats going on and thinking the canopy is opening slower. Do the 1000, 2000, etc, to see when the canopy is sitting you up and when its flyable.


lepidoctora  (C 3681)

Oct 3, 2012, 9:13 AM
Post #13 of 26 (4299 views)
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Re: [jackwallace] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

It could be increased situational awareness that's making me think the canopy takes longer to open... but the canopy is pretty new to me (I've put <10 jumps on it). Comparing the perceived-length-of-opening between this and the last canopy (Sabre1 170 rental gear), I feel like this is taking longer to open, and I want to say that the perception and reality match up, since the Sabre1 wasn't that long ago.

(Aside: I know Sabre1s have a rep for hard openings, but I actually liked the rental gear. It was gentler on me than the one before that, a rental Silhouette 190 that bruised me something bad).

On a 2-way we usually breakoff at 5500, track 5-7 seconds. Whether I'm solo or group, I have my altimeter in sight by 4500, wave-off at 4000 and pitch when the wave-off is done. I don't think the issue is that I pitch lower than 3500, though I will admit that it was previously a problem for me. (A coach once filmed me pitching at 3200 when my pitch was supposed to be at 4000, precisely because I took my sweet time waving off, and ever since then I have been waving off 500 feet higher than my pitch altitude. Also not so lazily either. Tongue )

I think I'm going to try all of these suggestions... but one at a time. If I get a nice soft fast opening just with looser rolls, I'll stick with that. If not, less nose-pushing. If not, I'll try nose-flaking. And I'll start pulling at 4000 and counting the time-to-opening. (Though our hop 'n' pops from the Cessna are at 3500... freaks me right out I tell ya.)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 3, 2012, 9:45 AM
Post #14 of 26 (4275 views)
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Re: [lepidoctora] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I would try rolling the tail less, and maybe working with slider placement (more toward the rear, but always on the stops), but like you said, one change at a time. Avoid flaking the nose in the open position, that's asking for too quick of an opening.

Overall, I don't think much will change. Put another 20 jumps on it and see what you think. If you're still not happy, have an more experienced jumper (ask around the DZ as to who) take it up and see what they think about the openings. If they seem to think it's fine and you still don't like it, call the factory and ask them about a smaller slider and exactly what size to use (and then only try that size).

I think in the end you'll learn to like your openings. Soft openings are nothing to complain about, and the alternative is much worse (hard openings).Though our hop 'n' pops from the Cessna are at 3500... freaks me right out I tell ya
Quote:

Keep in mind that when you leave the plane, your descent rate is low, so if you pull after a few seconds, your overall altitude loss will only be a couple hundred feet. So your PC will be out by 3200ft, and even then you're not going to be falling as fast so you'll use up less altitude evern if your opening takes the same amount of time.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Oct 3, 2012, 10:29 AM
Post #15 of 26 (4247 views)
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Re: [lepidoctora] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
On a 2-way we usually breakoff at 5500, track 5-7 seconds.

Hey, I also used to breakoff at 5500' ... when I was on 56 to 60 way formation attempts in Ontario in 2004.

Snicker. Sorry for the digression, but I couldn't help myself Michelle. Tongue


lepidoctora  (C 3681)

Oct 3, 2012, 12:29 PM
Post #16 of 26 (4205 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

Tongue I'm under no delusions that I track like Superman... lots of altitude to bleed while aiming for that horizontal separation is fine by me!


fanya  (D License)

Oct 4, 2012, 1:33 AM
Post #17 of 26 (4095 views)
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Re: [lepidoctora] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

The link that I had is down but if you can find someone that knows the " wolmar pack" style it'll speed up your openings, I can tell you from personal experience it does, I pack my spectre this way... but would never pack my sabre1 like that. Basically once you lay your canopy down in a nice neat triangle instead of cocooning it you fold the canopy on top of its self. Hard to describe without pictures but with cocooning you are rolling the excess outside fabric in front of the nose where with the " wolmar pack" you are folding the excess on top of the top skin. Maybe I'll mspaint something up tomorrow.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Oct 4, 2012, 1:41 AM
Post #18 of 26 (4093 views)
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Re: [fanya] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The link that I had is down but if you can find someone that knows the " wolmar pack" style it'll speed up your openings, I can tell you from personal experience it does, I pack my spectre this way... but would never pack my sabre1 like that. Basically once you lay your canopy down in a nice neat triangle instead of cocooning it you fold the canopy on top of its self. Hard to describe without pictures but with cocooning you are rolling the excess outside fabric in front of the nose where with the " wolmar pack" you are folding the excess on top of the top skin. Maybe I'll mspaint something up tomorrow.

Bagging does not make a significant difference on sniveling. I do wolmari pack too, but it does not make my snivel time shorter or longer.


craigbey  (C 31991)

Oct 4, 2012, 4:29 AM
Post #19 of 26 (4060 views)
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Re: [fanya] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Basically once you lay your canopy down in a nice neat triangle instead of cocooning it you fold the canopy on top of its self.

http://www.dropzone.com/...olmari_pack_P274980/


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Oct 4, 2012, 9:01 AM
Post #20 of 26 (3992 views)
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Re: [lepidoctora] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Also my end cells seem to be squashed closed all the time and it makes me nervous and squirrelly because what if the snivel is too long AND I have asymmetrically closed end cells AND I'm low?

Add more brakes! End cells closures and snivels may both be corrected with more brakes. In packing configuration with the brakes set, note where the shortest brake line is in reference to the "A" or "B" line attachment. If it is below the "A" line toward the risers contact the manufacturer with this information. If it is above then shorten it about 2 inches at a time until you get the opening you need. You may not have enough latitude to shorten it much. Dont go below the A without factory consultation.

JS


fanya  (D License)

Oct 4, 2012, 11:08 AM
Post #21 of 26 (3963 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The link that I had is down but if you can find someone that knows the " wolmar pack" style it'll speed up your openings, I can tell you from personal experience it does, I pack my spectre this way... but would never pack my sabre1 like that. Basically once you lay your canopy down in a nice neat triangle instead of cocooning it you fold the canopy on top of its self. Hard to describe without pictures but with cocooning you are rolling the excess outside fabric in front of the nose where with the " wolmar pack" you are folding the excess on top of the top skin. Maybe I'll mspaint something up tomorrow.

Bagging does not make a significant difference on sniveling. I do wolmari pack too, but it does not make my snivel time shorter or longer.

My personal experience is it speeds up openings, YMMV.

Also to the OP, I've found that a cleanly packed parachute opens slightly faster than a trash packed one that has to "sort" itself out a bit more, once again YMMV.


voilsb  (D 30581)

Oct 6, 2012, 9:20 AM
Post #22 of 26 (3808 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Also my end cells seem to be squashed closed all the time and it makes me nervous and squirrelly because what if the snivel is too long AND I have asymmetrically closed end cells AND I'm low?

Add more brakes! End cells closures and snivels may both be corrected with more brakes. In packing configuration with the brakes set, note where the shortest brake line is in reference to the "A" or "B" line attachment. If it is below the "A" line toward the risers contact the manufacturer with this information. If it is above then shorten it about 2 inches at a time until you get the opening you need. You may not have enough latitude to shorten it much. Dont go below the A without factory consultation.

JS
this is very interesting ... I'll be checking it out solely for curiosity.


Ronaldo  (D 34728)

Oct 6, 2012, 7:49 PM
Post #23 of 26 (3755 views)
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Re: [lepidoctora] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

Get a same size slider or have a rigger to make one. Cut a small hole in the middle and make a few jumps to test it. Increase the size until you get the opening speed you want


5.samadhi

Oct 7, 2012, 9:32 AM
Post #24 of 26 (3700 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
working with slider placement (more toward the rear, but always on the stops)
worked for my safire2 that took 800' to open!

also if it is sniveling with the slider up for awhile a gentle pull on the rear risers can help tremendously.


lepidoctora  (C 3681)

Oct 9, 2012, 3:51 PM
Post #25 of 26 (3571 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Packing for shorter snivel/faster opening? [In reply to] Can't Post

Update!

So I started with the loose rolls, but I found they made for a very sloppy looking packjob (admittedly I have slow, inefficient, struggle-buggy packjobs) and not much difference on the time-to-open.

Slider placement does appear to give a faster opening, but I value my spine too much to really put the slider towards the rear, on the stops or otherwise... a little shift towards the rear gave me a faster perceived-time-to-open. Unfortunately I can't be accurate about the exact distance because I don't have any electronics.

I'm getting less nervous about the long openings, though... not sure if this is a good thing or bad thing. Cool

Thanks for your help, DZ!


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