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Demoing my reserve - questions

 

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voilsb  (D 30581)

Sep 21, 2012, 6:22 PM
Post #26 of 42 (1168 views)
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Re: [hillson] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

I put 35 jumps on an OM-160 Optimum demo two years ago. I did high pulls, wingsuit jumps, RW jumps, hop and pops, everything. It flew and flared fine, at terminal and sub-terminal. The hole in the slider was big enough I could fit my head through it while wearing my helmet (on the ground). I don't recall any of the openings being terribly fast or at all painful.


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Sep 21, 2012, 7:10 PM
Post #27 of 42 (1158 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Peter,

I am actually having fun, DZ.com is an endless source of amusement!

I tend to disagree with the fact that reserves don't fly like mains. They do, they fly just like 7 cell mains. Of course they don't fly like highly engineered, crossbraced 9 cell canopies, they are a simplistic 7 cell design, designed for reliability.

I think the OP is doing the right thing and taking the time to learn about his gear. Something many, many more people should do. By no means am I saying that all reserve landing should be stand ups, I'm simply saying that they are all more than capable of offering a stand-up landing. Of course conditions, stress, or the situation can affect the landing, but that's not a "feature" of the reserve.

I fully agree that the OP should know that it's not going to fly/land exactly like a 9 cell with a powerful flare, but I would never suggest that he should be given the expectation that he would HAVE to slide it in or PLF etc. That's absurd. I think it's pretty clear based on the fact that this thread was even started, that the OP knew it would be different. It's an airfoil just like any other canopy. By demo'ing it, he will have the opportunity to discover that it may need some adjustment of the flaring style, or timing, but the OP wasn't asking for techniques. As I understand, he was asking for ideas to make the most effective use of his time with the reserve. Techniques should be given by his instructors, in a face to face environment.

A certain post in this thread would have led the OP to expect nothing more than to be slammed into the ground by the reserve after attempting a PLF. Instead, he should be given the opportunity to discover that it does actually flare, and it is actually capable of offering a stand up, graceful landing.

And it's sleep time for me...


(This post was edited by Chris-Ottawa on Sep 21, 2012, 7:12 PM)


nigel99  (D 1)

Sep 21, 2012, 7:25 PM
Post #28 of 42 (1147 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well, if that's what you inferred from what I wrote, then I'm going to infer that you can't land a Tempo standing up, am I correct?

Well I might have been able to stand it up I don't know. I learnt to jump on rounds and I'll stick my neck out and say that if you are 100% committed to a PLF you can't stand up the landing because your legs are in the wrong place. In my case this was my first reserve ride and I didn't want a cocked up landing to make my day worse. Next time if I'm on the dz I'll stand it up, if I'm landing off it will be a plf.


DocPop  (C License)

Sep 22, 2012, 6:08 AM
Post #29 of 42 (1109 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am coming back soon with more info.

Thanks. I have heard it before, but never actually seen the legislation written down anywhere.


erdnarob  (D 364)

Sep 22, 2012, 12:52 PM
Post #30 of 42 (1080 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Here we are. Here in attachment an exerpt of the CSPA Parachutist Information Manual (PIM 1) dealing with Basic Safety regulations and recommendations chapter 3.16. I am pretty sure that USPA has about the same requirements.

That makes sense for :

1) a jump pilot wants to use zero parachute then wear one
2) a regular jumper wants to use one parachute then wear two
3) a jumper wanting to test a reserve in the reserve container configuration wants to use two parachutes then
wear three

See any test jumper at DeLand for instance testing a reserve in normal configuration, he/she always has a tertiary reserve mounted on belly with a very long bridle cord.
Attachments: Intentional cut away.png (189 KB)


hillson  (D 33134)

Sep 24, 2012, 6:44 AM
Post #31 of 42 (1016 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would have thought PD would have given him advice on the Sub terminal/terminal deployment, especially if it was one of theirs.

Can the OP clarify that?.

Yeah...I posted this over the weekend while waiting to hear back...plus I had a few more questions. Part of the email that I got back:

With the OP we would suggest you do both terminal and sub terminal openings so you can get a feel for how this canopy inflates given the different air speeds. I think you will be surprised how compliant the opening is, even for a reserve. As we think of most reserve rides being sub terminal, as rigger who has seen his fair share of reserve pack jobs you never know when that total sneaks up on you!


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Sep 24, 2012, 7:23 AM
Post #32 of 42 (1005 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Disclaimer: For the US.

In reply to:
Reserves are designed for slow and soft opening.

No they are not designed to open slow and soft.

AS8015-B 4.3.6

In reply to:
You always need (according regulations) one parachute extra than the number of parachutes you want to use.

While it is a good idea it is not required.

Part 105.43

Sparky


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 26, 2012, 1:16 AM
Post #33 of 42 (933 views)
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Re: [jonathan.newman] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Have no fear taking it to terminal. I demo'ed an OP143 loaded at 1.5 and I perceived that it opened more gently than a Katana 120 at 1.8. I'd be a lot more hesitant to take it terminal if it were packed like a reserve with the nose opened up and the tail not wrapped around.
I was wondering when somebody was going to hit on that. It took all these posts from several people who all completely missed this.

They tried to say the hard-opening thing about the Raven reserves, too.
LaughLaughLaughLaugh



Get an RDS...the ground rats will love it.
LaughLaughLaugh


Squeak  (E 1313)

Sep 26, 2012, 2:49 AM
Post #34 of 42 (921 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Have no fear taking it to terminal. I demo'ed an OP143 loaded at 1.5 and I perceived that it opened more gently than a Katana 120 at 1.8. I'd be a lot more hesitant to take it terminal if it were packed like a reserve with the nose opened up and the tail not wrapped around.
I was wondering when somebody was going to hit on that. It took all these posts from several people who all completely missed this.

They tried to say the hard-opening thing about the Raven reserves, too.
LaughLaughLaughLaugh



Get an RDS...the ground rats will love it.
LaughLaughLaugh
it was picked up way earlier in the thread, just ignored


erdnarob  (D 364)

Sep 26, 2012, 9:03 PM
Post #35 of 42 (868 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

I speak by experience. I have had 6 reserve rides including two total. Three rounds and three square at all. Openings both after a cutaway or total, were soft and never like some slammer openings. Maybe the adrenaline made me feel something soft. But surprisingly, when I got my two totals (PD 160), the reserve was very progressive for opening but quite fast. I didn't have the time to contemplate the opening, when I had a look it, it was fully deployed. I have to say that I was equiped with a Skyhook in both cases.

For the tertiary reserves, at the CSPA, this not a regulation but a recommendation to wear it for intentional cut away. Thanks to mention these discrepencies.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Sep 27, 2012, 12:06 AM
Post #36 of 42 (856 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I speak by experience. I have had 6 reserve rides including two total. Three rounds and three square at all. Openings both after a cutaway or total, were soft and never like some slammer openings. Maybe the adrenaline made me feel something soft. But surprisingly, when I got my two totals (PD 160), the reserve was very progressive for opening but quite fast. I didn't have the time to contemplate the opening, when I had a look it, it was fully deployed. I have to say that I was equiped with a Skyhook in both cases.

For the tertiary reserves, at the CSPA, this not a regulation but a recommendation to wear it for intentional cut away. Thanks to mention these discrepencies.

I am also speaking from experience. I have been involved in TSO testing on several reserve/emergency canopies. I have over 50 intentional test jumps on various types of canopies, round, square, cross from and others. Most modern canopies are reefed in some manner to prevent damage. But they are not designed to open slowly. Under TSO-23d they have a standard of 3 sec. or 300 feet, most being tested to 3 sec.
Fast does not always mean hard.

Sparky


Deyan  (D 322)

Sep 27, 2012, 12:33 AM
Post #37 of 42 (854 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But surprisingly, when I got my two totals (PD 160), the reserve was very progressive for opening but quite fast. I didn't have the time to contemplate the opening, when I had a look it, it was fully deployed. I have to say that I was equiped with a Skyhook in both cases.
.

It's a total malfunction. You know that Skyhook had nothing to add to the speed of the deployment, so why did you mentioned it?!


jonathan.newman  (D 30644)

Sep 27, 2012, 8:11 PM
Post #38 of 42 (797 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Alright, Pops Jumper, I'll bite. When you pack a Raven in a d-bag, with the tail rolled around, how hard does it open?


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Sep 27, 2012, 8:12 PM
Post #39 of 42 (797 views)
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Re: [Deyan] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
But surprisingly, when I got my two totals (PD 160), the reserve was very progressive for opening but quite fast. I didn't have the time to contemplate the opening, when I had a look it, it was fully deployed. I have to say that I was equiped with a Skyhook in both cases.
.

It's a total malfunction. You know that Skyhook had nothing to add to the speed of the deployment, so why did you mentioned it?!

+1

Anyone that depends on or has had one save their life was so deep in the shit they should reconsider skydiving.

Sparky


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 29, 2012, 3:45 PM
Post #40 of 42 (763 views)
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Re: [jonathan.newman] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Alright, Pops Jumper, I'll bite. When you pack a Raven in a d-bag, with the tail rolled around, how hard does it open?

If you are serious, just like any other canopy....nicely.


erdnarob  (D 364)

Sep 29, 2012, 6:24 PM
Post #41 of 42 (756 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Your experience is quite impressive. But what I am saying about reserve comes from the feelings and I have no figures to post. I agree with you about the fast opening of reserves but, at least in my case, they were all soft. Now, can we have a parachute opening fast and soft together. I guess so providing the deployment being very progressive. In a way, I am saying that nobody has to be afraid to deploy a reserve at terminal speed and...on a total malfunction, you have no choice.
Now for the people who said the Skyhook makes no difference, have a look at the Skyhook videos on the UPT Vector web site.


erdnarob  (D 364)

Sep 29, 2012, 6:28 PM
Post #42 of 42 (755 views)
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Re: [Deyan] Demoing my reserve - questions [In reply to] Can't Post

I mentioned the Skyhook for readers interest. In case of a total, the reserve pilot chute takes charge of the reserve deployment but important thing...the Skyhook has to unhook from the RSL as designed.


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