Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
riser pressure

 

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uberchris  (A License)

Sep 21, 2012, 5:19 AM
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riser pressure Can't Post

i have a sabre1 150 loaded at 1.4........ i like it, its quite docile and i flare and land it great, but i definitely find that front riser turns build up IMMENSE pressure and i can only make it through a complete 360 degree front riser turn before i have to let off the fronts.......

will a sabre2 at the same size have lighter front riser pressure because its semi elliptical? how bout a spectre in the same size?


matt002

Sep 21, 2012, 6:05 AM
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Re: [uberchris] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

Pretty much every canopy I've owned will max out on front risers after the first 360degrees. If you want to keep the turn going past that you will need to start adding harness input as you come up to the 270degree point. My usually turn on a velocity 84 is a 630, the risers are rock solid after the first 270, it's all harness after that point. Worth noting that harness imput is very effective on highly loaded wings, your sabre will probably need quite a bit of physical effort to keep the rotation going past 360 degrees, a sabre 2 will probaly be very slightly easier due to being tapered rather than rectangle.


hokierower  (B 36150)

Sep 21, 2012, 7:31 AM
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Re: [uberchris] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a Sabre2 150 at 1.45 and when practicing up high after about the first 180 degrees of a turn the harness input takes over and it will stay in a nice dive with very little riser input.


uberchris  (A License)

Sep 21, 2012, 6:16 PM
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Re: [hokierower] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks for the heads up.......what ive been doing is starting the turn with harness input as well as riser input at the same time.............next jump i will crank my riser and then try to bury all my hip weight into the turn and see if i can keep going...........


za_skydiver  (E License)

Sep 25, 2012, 2:55 AM
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Re: [uberchris] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

I have found that if you point your legs in the direction you want to turn, you have a much bigger effect than just burying your hip...


5.samadhi

Sep 25, 2012, 8:07 AM
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Re: [za_skydiver] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

you mean leg singular right? I dont see how it would be possible to point both legs and not have your weight shifted the opposite direction.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Sep 25, 2012, 10:00 AM
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Re: [5.samadhi] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

twist in your harness in the direction you want to turn.


cbassmnm  (C License)

Dec 2, 2013, 7:22 AM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

Instead of starting a new thread, I just found this one, so I will ask my question here.
I just downsized from sabre 2 170 (1.35) to sabre 2 150 (1.5), which was approved by the DZ s&ta.
I have been doing double front approaches on the 170, and have been able to dive the canopy for about 5 seconds before the pressure builds where I have to release to enter the landing phase.
With the 150, I was expecting the pressure to be less and I could dive the canopy longer. Turns out it is the opposite. I can barely Double front dive the canopy for 3 seconds before they are ripped from my hands.
Naturally, the recovery of the 150 is a bit longer than the 170, but I could dive the 170 for longer so the end resulting "swoop" or surf of the 2 is about the same.
When I went from my 190 s2 to 170 Sabre 2 the riser pressure was less, so why not now with the 150?
This is kind of a curve ball to me in my journey to learn HP canopy landings.


Premier rwieder  (C 32349)

Dec 2, 2013, 1:26 PM
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Re: [cbassmnm] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
When I went from my 190 s2 to 170 Sabre 2 the riser pressure was less, so why not now with the 150?

Increased wing load f/ the 170 to the 150. I previewed your profile and judging by your jump numbers you shouldn't be flying such a high wing load just yet. Is you DZO & S&TA gonna help you out when something happens. (Hope it doesn't, but this is a dangerous sport.) Just sayin'

Best-
Richard


ridebmxbikes  (D 33588)

Dec 2, 2013, 3:20 PM
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Re: [cbassmnm] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
This is kind of a curve ball to me in my journey to learn HP canopy landings.

your curve ball is that you downsized to such a high wingloading before learning this stuff. If you are having double front issues now just wait till you incorporate turns for your landings or even worse planning out on rears. the thing about high performance landings is its like starting out all over again and you are going to make mistakes.

to answer your question, it sounds like your canopy is trying to recover. chances are with the downsize you are able to pull the risers down faster and further than with your 170. the faster you start a dive the faster it will recover. pulling the fronts down further is giving you more speed=lift. between the two your canopy is trying to recover to full flight sooner than you want. try unloading your canopy by cycling and as your canopy starts tipping back forward pull the fronts, it will make it easier to pull down and wont try to rip out you hands. it will start trying to gain lift again after a while so you only need about 4 seconds on double fronts, and start releasing your risers smooth for the recovery.

also all this info may be wrong and get you hurt or killed. i suggest you take some canopy courses. beginner and intermediate. they are worth it! good luck! you will need luck on your side!


(This post was edited by ridebmxbikes on Dec 2, 2013, 4:35 PM)


Jvx  (D License)

Dec 2, 2013, 10:33 PM
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Re: [cbassmnm] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

Upsize bro!!' Learn your 170 then downsize. Like I always tell guys downsizing... Don't downsize until YOU can do everything with your current canopy... I think IMO you just want to tell people you're flying a small canopy.


cbassmnm  (C License)

Dec 3, 2013, 6:18 AM
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Re: [Jvx] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

I cant pull the risers down faster or further with the 150. Its harder to pull them even from 1/4 brakes and cant hold them as long. Since it is higher wingload, I guess that is why. It was the opposite on my previous downsize though.
I've got about 150 double front approaches on the 170. Half of those are landing or planing out on rears, then transitioning to brakes. On the upside harness turns are easier, which makes sense.


ridebmxbikes  (D 33588)

Dec 3, 2013, 7:12 AM
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Re: [cbassmnm] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe check your brake line length? When you pull fully on the fronts is there any tension on the tail? It could cause a buffeting effect and cause the fronts to be ripped out your hands


cbassmnm  (C License)

Dec 3, 2013, 7:56 AM
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Re: [ridebmxbikes] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, this was the first thing I did when I jumped the canopy for the first time, like I learned in the flight 1 course. Luckily, they were quite long. Pulled on the brakes while looking up to see when it started moving the tail. Its a good 6 -7 inches. Pulling on the fronts while looking up, there is no tail deflection. I'm actually getting my brakes lines shortened a bit b/c the sweet spot in the flare is lower than I was used to.


swoopfly  (E License)

Dec 4, 2013, 6:16 AM
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Re: [cbassmnm] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

with smaller highly loaded canopies you dont pull your risers, its all harness input. It also keeps your wing from deforming while picking up alot of speed. therefore not bleeding off the speed your generated.


(This post was edited by swoopfly on Dec 4, 2013, 6:18 AM)


DocPop  (C License)

Dec 5, 2013, 6:33 AM
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Re: [swoopfly] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

swoopfly wrote:
with smaller highly loaded canopies you dont pull your risers, its all harness input. It also keeps your wing from deforming while picking up alot of speed. therefore not bleeding off the speed your generated.

That's not a very effective way to fly a 150.


swoopfly  (E License)

Dec 5, 2013, 9:58 AM
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Re: [DocPop] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

DocPop wrote:
swoopfly wrote:
with smaller highly loaded canopies you dont pull your risers, its all harness input. It also keeps your wing from deforming while picking up alot of speed. therefore not bleeding off the speed your generated.

That's not a very effective way to fly a 150.

Hence why i stated WITH SMALLER HIGHLY LOADED CANOPIES.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Dec 6, 2013, 7:05 AM
Post #18 of 50 (3648 views)
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Re: [swoopfly] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
with smaller highly loaded canopies you dont pull your risers, its all harness input.

ummm....no. You're wrong.


hokierower  (B 36150)

Dec 6, 2013, 12:03 PM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

ianmdrennan wrote:
Quote:
with smaller highly loaded canopies you dont pull your risers, its all harness input.

ummm....no. You're wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPKX2wtXHpY

I'm just gonna leave this here...just a little bit of fronts used on this one...


swoopfly  (E License)

Dec 6, 2013, 6:52 PM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

ianmdrennan wrote:
Quote:
with smaller highly loaded canopies you dont pull your risers, its all harness input.

ummm....no. You're wrong.

I have talked with a few swoopers who swear by it. I overcourse know you have way more experience than me ian. So do you personally not think, doing the same turn without deflecting your wing, (bending it theoretically) by pulling on a riser, but harness turning keeps more speed? I have tried both ways and can tell a difference. just curious your opinion, as it works for me. With the idea that you are getting just as vertical in a dive but keeping the wing level and not deflected from pulling the lines on one side. I think warren cleary described this method.


Pablo.Moreno  (C 13216)

Dec 6, 2013, 7:16 PM
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Re: [swoopfly] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

There is people that do HP landings by only doing harness turns, is a lot more difficult to control the rotation hence more difficult to hit the gates.

With front risers you can control all variables of the turn such as speeding up, slowing down, not to mention that you would reach terminal a lot faster. That way you can start your turn lower than if you attempt to reach the same speed through only harness inputs and the rotation would be smaller.

All around, front risers are way more efficient than harness turns, but it is a good way to finish a big rotation when the pressure is to high, or even better, improve your technique.

On that note, to get used to my current wing and add speed to my landings, I am doing a lot of 90 harness turns on landings and I am still building up some decent speed, until I feel I can start touching front risers.


swoopfly  (E License)

Dec 6, 2013, 7:33 PM
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Re: [Pablo.Moreno] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

let me state i also use a riser and harness input initiating a turn, but in the dive i try to only use harness input generating the speed. i obviously wouldnt just throw a leg up to start a dive only but after getting vertical not put much riser input.


jjudd  (D 31065)

Dec 6, 2013, 8:22 PM
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Re: [Pablo.Moreno] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
All around, front risers are way more efficient than harness turns, but it is a good way to finish a big rotation when the pressure is to high, or even better, improve your technique.


I have to disagree with you here.

I will say each technique has its strengths and its weakness. No one is more effective than the other.

Lets look at nick batsch and curt barthalomew for example, both are team mates with equally opposites techniques and overall size of rotations during their turns. Both have and continue to dominate competitive swooping meet after meet. Even going to the PDFT and every other swoop team out there, each of the individual pilots on the teams have equally different turns.


In theory, and with a perfect turn, maximum canopy speed and potential can be reached by all methods. The point being made here is both are proven and effective methods neither more right then the other. Its all about what a pilot prefers and his past mentors who taught him.

Flysight data will show and prove this to you if you want to compare speeds, rotation drifts, etc.


(This post was edited by jjudd on Dec 6, 2013, 8:22 PM)


jjudd  (D 31065)

Dec 6, 2013, 8:25 PM
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Re: [uberchris] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

To the OP go spend some time with a canopy coach and if your able around a canopy piloting competition. You will see alot of different techniques and gain alot of knowledge.


Pablo.Moreno  (C 13216)

Dec 7, 2013, 7:08 PM
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Re: [jjudd] riser pressure [In reply to] Can't Post

jjudd wrote:
Quote:
All around, front risers are way more efficient than harness turns, but it is a good way to finish a big rotation when the pressure is to high, or even better, improve your technique.


I have to disagree with you here.

I will say each technique has its strengths and its weakness. No one is more effective than the other.

Lets look at nick batsch and curt barthalomew for example, both are team mates with equally opposites techniques and overall size of rotations during their turns. Both have and continue to dominate competitive swooping meet after meet. Even going to the PDFT and every other swoop team out there, each of the individual pilots on the teams have equally different turns.


In theory, and with a perfect turn, maximum canopy speed and potential can be reached by all methods. The point being made here is both are proven and effective methods neither more right then the other. Its all about what a pilot prefers and his past mentors who taught him.

Flysight data will show and prove this to you if you want to compare speeds, rotation drifts, etc.

I guess I should've add, that's what works the best and what I been tough ( I have taken a few canopy courses and in all honesty I was spouting what was tough to me) and what works for myself


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