Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
Dumping in a track?

 

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scottd818  (C 41314)

Sep 15, 2012, 5:25 AM
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Dumping in a track? Can't Post

it deploying in a track a bad or unsafe idea?


diablopilot  (D License)

Sep 15, 2012, 5:29 AM
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Re: [scottd818] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

Only if you don't want an increased chance of malfunctions, or hard opening resulting in injury.

Other than that, go for it.


dthames  (B 37674)

Sep 15, 2012, 6:08 AM
Post #3 of 87 (5068 views)
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Re: [scottd818] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have done it a couple of times by mistake and I am now a lot more careful to give myself plenty of time to slow down.

If you do a tracking dive and get going really fast, it takes a lot longer than some might expect to get slowed back down. 10 seconds for me on a recent jump before my horizontal speed was back to near zero. (GPS data)

Until you max out your horizontal speed, the longer you track (well) the faster you will be going. Just something to remember. You can really get up a head of steam after 15 seconds or more.


scottd818  (C 41314)

Sep 15, 2012, 6:15 AM
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Re: [diablopilot] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

how and what malfunctions can it cause??


Arvoitus  (D 3917)

Sep 15, 2012, 6:55 AM
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Re: [scottd818] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

Its not the malfunctions you need to worry about. Most wingsuiters have more vertical speed when deploying then the average tracker has and they don't have massive amounts of malfunctions.

However deploying with a lot of forward speed can give you really rough openings.


sundevil777  (D License)

Sep 15, 2012, 7:08 AM
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Re: [scottd818] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

On most large RW jumps, I think there are many people that open while nearly in a track, or very shortly after ending their track. Just a couple or a few seconds after ending their track anyway.


5.samadhi

Sep 15, 2012, 8:48 AM
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Re: [Arvoitus] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Its not the malfunctions you need to worry about. Most wingsuiters have more vertical speed when deploying then the average tracker has and they don't have massive amounts of malfunctions.

However deploying with a lot of forward speed can give you really rough openings.
its not so much the forward speed or the vertical speed you have to worry about - but the combination (or vector).


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Sep 15, 2012, 9:40 AM
Post #8 of 87 (4960 views)
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Re: [scottd818] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

I love these discussions because what people don't realize is that deploying in a track does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to change the deployment. And here's why:

When you track, you are converting vertical speed to horizontal speed. Key word: Converting. That means, what you take from one, turns into the other. So, if you were falling at 10mph, and started tracking at 5mph horizontally, you are roughly falling 5mph now.

Second thing to consider is that when you deploy, no matter what orientation or speed in which direction you are going makes any difference. Once you pitch your pilot chute, it will go PERFECTLY in line with the relative wind every single time, guaranteed.

The ONLY thing that does change, is the orientation of your body once you deploy. When you deploy normally, your body changes roughly 90 degrees from belly to vertical. When you're tracking, your body changes somewhere closer to 180 degrees and it may "seem" that it is harder or more violent etc.

Fact is, the bad openings are likely caused by poor body position as you body transitions that 180 degrees. I deploy while still tracking, and directly from full wingsuit flight 100% of the time. I have never had a bad, hard or crazy opening as a result of that.


(This post was edited by Chris-Ottawa on Sep 15, 2012, 9:41 AM)


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Sep 15, 2012, 10:09 AM
Post #9 of 87 (4937 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I love these discussions because what people don't realize is that deploying in a track does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to change the deployment. And here's why:

When you track, you are converting vertical speed to horizontal speed. Key word: Converting. That means, what you take from one, turns into the other. So, if you were falling at 10mph, and started tracking at 5mph horizontally, you are roughly falling 5mph now.

Granted it doesn't change the deployment but it does change the opening.

I would say the Key word is "Speed". When you track it is really nothing but a vertical dive with a small amount of hotizontal deflection, certainly more with a wing suit. Tracking speeds can reach up over 200 MPH achieving a Dynamic pressure of near 100 pound per square foot. Normal "Q" or dynamic pressire is about 33 pfs. So we tripple the force of the air and if you don't think that won't roll your socks down when you open, enjoy.


nickfrey

Sep 15, 2012, 10:10 AM
Post #10 of 87 (4934 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Its not the malfunctions you need to worry about. Most wingsuiters have more vertical speed when deploying then the average tracker has and they don't have massive amounts of malfunctions.

However deploying with a lot of forward speed can give you really rough openings.
its not so much the forward speed or the vertical speed you have to worry about - but the combination (or vector).

Your 3d speed or vector really isnt that much faster if at all. For example, falling straight down @ 120mph is a 3d speed of 120. Tracking @. 6 glide or 60mph forward with a 100mph fallrate, thanks to pythagoras we know is 116. Ifyou flare to pitch, not only do you slow down, converting that speed into more lift. You put yourself into a more head up body position, lessening the swing through of the opening. I almost always pitch in a track, rarely if ever does it cause a problem and i get softer openings.


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Sep 15, 2012, 10:33 AM
Post #11 of 87 (4916 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just a point of clarification after a discussion via PM:

My comments remain, however I am referring to a true track, where generally a "beginner" tracker may potentially just be orienting themselves into a head low orientation and building speed. This scenario will result in a higher airspeed and can result in pretty dangerous deployments.

In a true track where you've converted vertical speed into horizontal...deployments should not be affected by anything more than chance. Going head low, or head down...don't deploy unless it's an emergency and prepare for the slammer you're about to get.


dthames  (B 37674)

Sep 15, 2012, 11:00 AM
Post #12 of 87 (4900 views)
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Re: [nickfrey] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Its not the malfunctions you need to worry about. Most wingsuiters have more vertical speed when deploying then the average tracker has and they don't have massive amounts of malfunctions.

However deploying with a lot of forward speed can give you really rough openings.
its not so much the forward speed or the vertical speed you have to worry about - but the combination (or vector).

Your 3d speed or vector really isnt that much faster if at all. For example, falling straight down @ 120mph is a 3d speed of 120. Tracking @. 6 glide or 60mph forward with a 100mph fallrate, thanks to pythagoras we know is 116. Ifyou flare to pitch, not only do you slow down, converting that speed into more lift. You put yourself into a more head up body position, lessening the swing through of the opening. I almost always pitch in a track, rarely if ever does it cause a problem and i get softer openings.

I think the answer to the OPs question might be related to the type of tracking he is talking about. Tracking for 6 seconds away from a RW formation and tracking full blast for 30 seconds on a tracking dive is completely different if you consider the horizontal component a factor.

If someone wants to do some of the math, here is some real data you can play with.
http://pyrodan.privatedata.com/...ng-data-sept-1-3.pdf


scottd818  (C 41314)

Sep 15, 2012, 11:04 AM
Post #13 of 87 (4900 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

i have dumped in a track twice and didnt feel like that were any rougher. i just felt like i swung forward more like when u do a hop and pop how u swing forward. i just wanted to make sure that there were no serious saftey concerns in doin so. thanks for the advice. i jump a pilot and get consistand 600-900 openings and have yet to have a hard opening.

Edited to add: i have never dumped in a track from a full tracking dive. just after a rw and sitfly jump where i was tracking for somewhere between 6-10 seconds. using the data from my altitrack i believe i have a fairly strong flat track. i slow my vertical speed down to the high 70s low 80s. but i do not know what my horizontal speed is.


(This post was edited by scottd818 on Sep 15, 2012, 11:07 AM)


tsalnukt

Sep 15, 2012, 11:30 AM
Post #14 of 87 (4882 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

Increased malfunctions???? Hard openings??

Please elaborate.

I have been pitching in a track for the better part of 8000 jumps. No increase in mals or harder openings for me. maybe I'm doing it wrong.


sundevil777  (D License)

Sep 15, 2012, 11:43 AM
Post #15 of 87 (4875 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In a true track where you've converted vertical speed into horizontal

There is not a 1 to 1 relationship.


tsalnukt

Sep 15, 2012, 11:44 AM
Post #16 of 87 (4873 views)
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Re: [dthames] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

Whether you are tracking on a tracking jump or getting separation from a rw jump, it is still tracking. I can't see any reason to track any differently from one jump to the other. Tracking (i guess technically speaking) should be giving you the most forward speed with the least downward speed. This is what gives horizontal separation. Should we be telling noobs to pitch in a track? Probably not because they are not really tracking. They are mostly going down with some a bit of forward movement.

BODY POSITION is one of the biggest contributors to how your parachute opens. Not whether you are pitching in a track or not.

Physics tells you that a swing of nearly 180 degrees and back will lessen the affects of a hard opening.


tsalnukt

Sep 15, 2012, 12:03 PM
Post #17 of 87 (4863 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

You're right it's not 1:1 but that is the principal. Using downward speed to create forward speed.


sundevil777  (D License)

Sep 15, 2012, 12:39 PM
Post #18 of 87 (4842 views)
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Re: [tsalnukt] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You're right it's not 1:1 but that is the principal. Using downward speed to create forward speed.

That is a long way from meaning that you will reduce your vertical speed as you track. Some will, many do not, or even increase their vertical speed in a track.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Sep 15, 2012, 12:40 PM)


Amazon  (D License)

Sep 15, 2012, 8:52 PM
Post #19 of 87 (4729 views)
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Re: [scottd818] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
how and what malfunctions can it cause??

I inadvertantly dumped in a track after a speed dive.... talk about a slammer....BANG.. the people on the ground said it sounded like a gunshot when it exploded open. It took me a few seconds to clear my head and let the spots in front of my eyes quit spinning. I blew 5 lines.... and one cell of the Triathlon was trashed...

The whole center of the canopy was a mess. the outer cells were still trying to fly but there was no way I was going to fly that POS. I made sure to clear the lines dangling all around me and then chopped it. I flew my nice big Raven reserve I bought from Skybytch and landed a nice standup in the peas at Mesquite... my first square reserve ride. Brad came running out to check that I was not injured from that loud a BANG... I was a bit sore... and sat and watched everyone else jump for the rest of the day.


jsaxton  (D 26818)

Sep 15, 2012, 9:03 PM
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Re: [scottd818] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

I almost always dump in a track


scottd818  (C 41314)

Sep 16, 2012, 7:06 AM
Post #21 of 87 (4637 views)
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Re: [jsaxton] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

wouldnt dumping in a track just be the same as dumping from a wingsuit jump? i would also think it could be good training for me untill i hit that lucky number 200 jump and can do a auctual wingsuit jump. how do people deploy from a tracking suit jump r they going belly to earth or do they just contine the track all the way thru deployment?


fasted3  (D 30104)

Sep 16, 2012, 7:23 AM
Post #22 of 87 (4622 views)
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Re: [scottd818] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
wouldnt dumping in a track just be the same as dumping from a wingsuit jump?

Sort of. The difference is you can't get the slow vertical speeds without a ws. If you are doing a really good track that slows your vertical speed a lot then deployment isn't bad. BUT, if your not, and just angled down with high vertical speed then it can be a real slammer. It's easier to get soft openings in a wingsuit.


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Sep 16, 2012, 7:52 AM
Post #23 of 87 (4605 views)
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Re: [scottd818] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
it deploying in a track a bad or unsafe idea?

Hurts... but less so than hitting the ground without an open parachute.

Crazy


piisfish

Sep 16, 2012, 10:25 AM
Post #24 of 87 (4570 views)
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Re: [scottd818] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

Depends on the track and the gear


JohnnyMarko

Sep 16, 2012, 8:08 PM
Post #25 of 87 (4452 views)
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Re: [scottd818] Dumping in a track? [In reply to] Can't Post

One and only time I got my Spectre to spank me was when I burned it low from a long spot and pulled while in a full track....yea, don't fucking do it, not fun...


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