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Would you ground this canopy?

 

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ActionAir  (D License)

Sep 14, 2012, 6:44 PM
Post #1 of 46 (4589 views)
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     Would you ground this canopy?  

We received this canopy, a Silhuoette 150 for repair. It was grounded by a (the) rigger in Israel. Really!!
Canopy had 400 jumps, by a jumper that might weigh 100 Lbs. She was also told it would have to be re-lined. IMHO, this canopy & the lines are completely airworthy. BTW, he wanted $600 to patch and re-line the canopy.
Attachments: Silhouette-Israeli 1.jpg (172 KB)
  Silhouette-Israeli 2.jpg (190 KB)
  Silhouette-Israeli 3.jpg (124 KB)


yoink

Sep 14, 2012, 7:42 PM
Post #2 of 46 (4521 views)
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     Re: [ActionAir] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

Does it have nicks like this all over the canopy or something?


ActionAir  (D License)

Sep 14, 2012, 8:12 PM
Post #3 of 46 (4494 views)
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     Re: [yoink] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

Does it have nicks like this all over the canopy or something?

In reply to:
Negative. The 3 that I took photos of only.


monkycndo  (D License)

Sep 14, 2012, 8:53 PM
Post #4 of 46 (4467 views)
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     Re: [ActionAir] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

Other than the fact I see where it came from, I would have thought you were kidding.Crazy


Krip  (Student)

Sep 14, 2012, 9:34 PM
Post #5 of 46 (4448 views)
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     Re: [ActionAir] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
We received this canopy, a Silhuoette 150 for repair. It was grounded by a (the) rigger in Israel. Really!!
Canopy had 400 jumps, by a jumper that might weigh 100 Lbs. She was also told it would have to be re-lined. IMHO, this canopy & the lines are completely airworthy. BTW, he wanted $600 to patch and re-line the canopy.

Different country and different standards?

Or just a very conservative rigger and a very good business person.Wink

It would be interesting to hear what some of the other Isreali riggers have to say about this.

FWIW I'm not a riggerSmile

R.


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Sep 14, 2012, 9:35 PM
Post #6 of 46 (4448 views)
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     Re: [ActionAir] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

Are those dimes sewn into the top skin all over the place, or just the three spots?

I would think that PD would keep dimes off the assembly floor.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Sep 14, 2012, 9:35 PM
Post #7 of 46 (4448 views)
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     Re: [ActionAir] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

What is the difference across the "A" lines?

How far are the steering line lengths from factory specs?


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Sep 15, 2012, 8:53 AM
Post #8 of 46 (4268 views)
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     Re: [ActionAir] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

Did the rigger just buy a new car?Tongue

I'd like to see a pic of the lines.


5.samadhi

Sep 15, 2012, 9:10 AM
Post #9 of 46 (4257 views)
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     Re: [JohnMitchell] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

I really do not think those small holes will affect performance very much at all.

I have flown canopies with holes like that and they work fine...and have had small patches done where I could not notice ANY gain in performance.


irishrigger  (D 297)

Sep 15, 2012, 5:50 PM
Post #10 of 46 (4141 views)
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     Re: [ActionAir] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

Personally i have seen a canopy in worse condition, And have said ok to be jumped. I am not sure where those tiny holes are located. The usual place i normally find those nicks are on the tail section. Are they by any chance located close to the tail of the centre cell? if so i could understand why the rigger might deem it unairworthy. If its not on the tail i would let it go and tell the owner to keep an eye on them.
I would also check the deployment bag and the grommet where the bridle is feed through to see if there iscany sharp nicks there. Also how is the canopy secured go the bag? is it acfrench link or soft links?
as for a reline cant say as i have not measured the line trim.
As for 600 dollars for the work, if a lineset has to be shipped abroad and import duty to be paid it can add up. I know in ireland its 26% and thats the total including the shipping price!
Then depends hos much a rigget charges for a reline. I normally charge 90 bucks
rodger


ActionAir  (D License)

Sep 15, 2012, 9:05 PM
Post #11 of 46 (4078 views)
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     Re: [ActionAir] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

OK, let me be clear. The question "would you ground this canopy" was "tongue in cheek". At least a few of you get it.
It's basically a few pin pricks on a main canopy. It's completely air worthy. Anyone that would try to ground this canopy is either nuts or has an ulterior motive. It's a main canopy!


kenneth21441  (B License)

Sep 16, 2012, 10:00 AM
Post #12 of 46 (3843 views)
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     Re: [ActionAir] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

Agree would nopt ground this canopy,.... from what Ive seen on the pics... as far as lines... id have them measured.... but shes only a hundred pounds... not too much stress forces i feel.. are placed on the lines.... if the canopy snivals alot on opening... maybe... but if not... jump it... those holes are too small to really worry much about other then to tell her to watch them and see if they get bigger.... and still dont see them near a seam,... this is rip stop.... stuff pretty strong... and all... just watch it...observe...just my two cents on this....


fcajump  (D 15598)

Sep 17, 2012, 2:29 PM
Post #13 of 46 (3446 views)
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     Re: [ActionAir] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

For the three issues you showed, no.

As to reline, condition is not the only criteria. Relative length can be a bigger issue, so you'd have to give some more information on that.

Have you done a complete inspection (inside and out)? Ripped ribs, or other internal damage?

Just looking for reasons other than the obvious...

JW


Deyan  (D 322)

Sep 17, 2012, 2:44 PM
Post #14 of 46 (3431 views)
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     Re: [ActionAir] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
OK, let me be clear. The question "would you ground this canopy" was "tongue in cheek". At least a few of you get it.
It's basically a few pin pricks on a main canopy. It's completely air worthy. Anyone that would try to ground this canopy is either nuts or has an ulterior motive. It's a main canopy!

I don't know the rules in Israel, but it could be that the main canopy airworthiness approval is mandatory. No approval = unairworthy canopy.


Bertt  (D 99999)

Sep 17, 2012, 2:52 PM
Post #15 of 46 (3426 views)
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     Re: [ActionAir] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

I've seen main canopies with 400 jumps that needed a line set. I've never seen one with a dime stuck to it that couldn't be jumped.


Unstable  (D 28930)

Sep 17, 2012, 2:52 PM
Post #16 of 46 (3426 views)
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     Re: [ActionAir] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

I believe you would do more damage to the canopy patching that, even with good workmanship, than to leave it be.


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Sep 17, 2012, 2:59 PM
Post #17 of 46 (3419 views)
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     Re: [Unstable] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

Quote:

I believe you would do more damage to the canopy patching that, even with good workmanship, than to leave it be

Our standard for patching is that it has to be larger than a pencil eraser (the one on the back of the pencil....) AND in the high pressure zone.


BS,
MEL


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Sep 18, 2012, 4:41 AM
Post #18 of 46 (3271 views)
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     Re: [masterrigger1] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
... in the high pressure zone.

Dumb Question: where is the high pressure zone?


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Sep 18, 2012, 6:19 AM
Post #19 of 46 (3239 views)
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     Re: [bob.dino] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

Usually considered the last one third (tail) of the
Canopy.


MEL


mark  (D 6108)

Sep 18, 2012, 6:41 AM
Post #20 of 46 (3220 views)
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     Re: [masterrigger1] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

What amount of pressure is there in the tail of the canopy (I realize "it depends," but a ballpark figure would still be useful for me) and what amount pressure differential is there between the high pressure area and lower pressure areas?

Mark


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Sep 18, 2012, 7:01 AM
Post #21 of 46 (3216 views)
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     Re: [Deyan] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
No approval = unairworthy canopy.

= big bucks for a rigger willing to unfairly exploit any 'approval' rule
I never though rigging was a way to make big money......unless you're crooked

(standardized requirements are a big win here to keep people from abusing rules like those for income - or to keep excessively conservative types from running roughshod over customers/the converse is true also - keeps riggers that are too loose from being flippant about real safety condition.)


(question for the master riggers - If the evaluator has to step back and say "well, the pilot is only 100 pounds" are they already on the wrong side of the discussion if that has any input to their assessment?)

(i.e., for weights that aren't above the max loading limits of course - if the wing is good to 200 pounds, then why should the fact that the pilot is 100 pounds vs 190 pounds matter??)


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Sep 18, 2012, 7:10 AM)


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Sep 18, 2012, 9:50 AM
Post #22 of 46 (3156 views)
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     Re: [mark] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

Quote:
What amount of pressure is there in the tail of the canopy (I realize "it depends," but a ballpark figure would still be useful for me) and what amount pressure differential is there between the high pressure area and lower pressure areas?

Mark

Mark,

One would expect the pressure to be somewhat equal front to rear after the opening and going forward in a straight line.

A better name for the high pressure zone would probably be "the higher pressure first zone" in that higher pressurization of the cell starts there as the canopy inflates and/changes to flight are made.
(.i.e, turns, dives, etc....)

MEL


mark  (D 6108)

Sep 18, 2012, 10:35 AM
Post #23 of 46 (3125 views)
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     Re: [rehmwa] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
In reply to:
No approval = unairworthy canopy.

= big bucks for a rigger willing to unfairly exploit any 'approval' rule
I never though rigging was a way to make big money......unless you're crooked

(standardized requirements are a big win here to keep people from abusing rules like those for income - or to keep excessively conservative types from running roughshod over customers/the converse is true also - keeps riggers that are too loose from being flippant about real safety condition.)

The name of the rigger who made the initial determination has been left out of this thread, but it is clear that many of us know who he is. No one who knows him would say that he was using his position and reputation to make big bucks, and all of us would agree that it would be especially unfair to suggest that he is crooked.

Mark


hookitt  (D License)

Sep 18, 2012, 10:01 PM
Post #24 of 46 (2999 views)
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     Re: [ActionAir] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

If it was yours, I'd ground it. Anyone else? No waySmile

I have a hard time believing that story, but I believe it. The guy is an ass.


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Sep 19, 2012, 12:46 AM
Post #25 of 46 (2975 views)
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     Re: [ActionAir] Would you ground this canopy? [In reply to]  

Smile Hi Ray

Thank you as a "Master Rigger" / "FAA DPRE" & "Aviation Person" for the time you spent trying to put a public stain on a Master Rigger in front of his 3 ladies skydivers from my DZ visiting your DZ & here on DZ.com

I hold my answer for taking a decision if you worth any answer - you don't but the readers / posters does worth it.

Few facts:
*The SIL150 have over 400 jumps BUT this is not the only parameter for reline or the how the lines looks TRIM is the most important factor. (you should know that as a Master Rigger / DPRE)

*The SIL150 has more holes at tail area than you show - you show the white bottom skin but not the NAVY top skin - I guess "Hate blinds the Brain", you might think that the holes are nothing this is your right to think different & it should be respected, I can think different & you should respect that as well & not play in the mud.
*The A lines trim are out of spec. by 3"- 4" in between the A group.
*The LST's & BRK-TOG are out of spec. as well.
*The canopy was not grounded but was on hold for reline & repairs & the owner agree with that
**The SIL150 was left as is = nothing was removed or fixed in case the owner will change her decision.
**If I would like to do "easy profit" based on the owner "yes please do it", I would remove the lines & repair the canopy a day after & wait for the new line.

The Story:
The owner of the SIL150 came a said she had some deployment issues, after talking about packing ,line dressing in the rubber bands & so on I checked the A lines trim inside the A group & got a "nice" result = up tp 3-4" in between the lines & 4" between A1 (center) & A5 (outboard) the owner was advised based on all the info. that the SIL150 better be relined before a deployment might hurt the owner or ended with line twist which might lead to a cutaway = reserve deployment - free bag & p/c lost & maybe main canopy lost but most of all self hurting or damage.

The owner was advised to let me run a full inspection before line set order from PD. during the inspection I found some small impact points at the tail area which we see all time at that point BUT also found few holes bigger than 1 ripstop box both in the top skin ZP (Navy) fabric & on the bottom skin 0-3 cfm white fabric.

The owner was advised that IMO the holes might grow up & a major repair might be needed & better be repaired at reline time when all ilnes are removed & surface cover patch will be used.

The owner was advised on few ways of repair & costs.

The owner agree to reline & repair the canopy after knowing the costs of the: (Reline work have a fixed price not including the lines)
*PD lines kit + SM-1 slinks + shipping & import duties + 16% VAT tax, now 17% (payment of the lines is made to the DZ shop - not to me)cost here are higher than in the USA.(yes, I replace the original slinks when I reline the main)
*Reline cost which covers: full inspection, small seams repairs if needed, old lines removal, new lines material, sewing & trim & slinks inspection, reline process,pre-sewing inspection, after work inspection attached to risers.

During the time I spent to find the best, low cost repair for the canpoy I was told the canopy is for sale & she got 2 different mains - 135 sq.ft for few jumps & a ST.120 she owns now - the SIL150 was not sold here. BTW the owner said few times that she want to sale the canopy after being fixed & relined.
The owner took the canopy with her to the USA without any work done for sale it as is.
*Her lines set was sold to a skydiver with a SIL150.

**Few facts for the readers/posters who doesn't know me or met me:

*I'll never use my position to do extra money - I earn my living from skydiving & rigging & my prices are fair even the costs here are much higher by any mean - I do not use USD I use Israeli Shekels !!
*I'll NEVER advise skydivers to go into a process for my own profit if they don't need it !!
*I'm giving my customers the best PRO care I can offer based on the Mfg. Instruction & all the years I study & still study at all time & yes, I do respect the Mfg. instructions - I have issue with any mfg. instructions I deal with the mfg. but I respect.
*I'm spending a lot of time & money for studing, all PIA sym. since 1995 & PIA meetings before the sym., running rigging classes at the PIA for many years, always a part of the PIA/FAA "Riggers Education" program & I'm the only civil rigger from Israel doing that. Most of my income is from skydiving & DZ rigging I do.
*I visited h/c & canopies mfg. & spent time to learn more & keep update my education.
*When I find a rigging error/s I try to trace the rigger & share with him my findings & educate for the right mfg. way to do it.
*I provide my customers a FREE AAD when their personal AAD was sent to Airtec.
*I provide my customers FREE main & reserve canopies when they have an issue with the main or reserve.
*I can be after a jumping day & a customer will ask me to I&R his/her reserve for tomorrow & I'm doing that - I NEVER charge more - I do it as a service even if I have to stay later or wake up early - same for repairs if can be done at that time & keep a customer airborne - NEVER charge extra.
*I spend hours with skydivers at No Charge when they order a new rig (I do not sale) or want to buy a used rig. when ordering a new rig I measure & do all the technical work FREE !!!
*I do NOT charge when I put an AAD into a h/c or replace batt. in Cypres1 if it is a part of th I&R process.
*I do not charge for main closing loops but give these free.
***I know my limits as a Master Rigger & when things are not clear to me I contact the mfg. for advise - I do not use the "Over Power given to me by law" I know my certificate rights but also the LIMITS.
***I do all I can for my customers for having the best Safety & Care when skydiving.
*** Yes, I have my own points of view & standards when I practice rigging you can agree or not but this is my way.
***I put all my forces when I think that my customers deserve a WARRANTY repair or service from a mfg. for having quality / mfg. issues & there are - I do that for the owners Safety & having the correct items which they paid for.

MAIN CANOPIES ATTITUDE:
Being a MAIN canopy doesn't mean the care should be "Wild" or careless, it is a parachute that is exposed to multi use conditions & care should be taken as well. Not being a TSO'd item doesn't mean it is in the "Wild West" area. you in the USA hve your own point of view - other countries (yes, there are others in the world Wink) that have different points of view - respect that.
** you might have the best h/c, the best AAD, the best reserve BUT if your main or a main part will fail at a very low altitude nothing will help you - the only thinking will - does that incident could be eliminated by inspection & care ?

A POINT TO THINK ABOUT:
The Xaos27 SB for the 2 shorter lines (mfg. error) which left a skydiver injured - it could be found during inspection & line trim check & the incident might be eliminated.

The saying & education "It is only a MAIN or a Non Approved item" is so wrong & might hurt skydivers all over.

*** Each issue in a canopy/parachuting system could be advised different by different riggers but all should be on a PRO basis & not Personal basis.

* Mark - thanks for the support & knowing who I am.

Thank you Ray - as I told you before you want to be respected - respect others !!! You put a stain on yourself & yourself only !!!

Be Safe !!!


(This post was edited by RIGGER on Sep 19, 2012, 5:48 AM)
Attachments: TEAR ON TOP.JPG (130 KB)
  TEAR ON BOTTOM.JPG (157 KB)
  HOLES ON BOTTOM FAR VIEW.JPG (103 KB)
  TOP SKIN HOLE (2).JPG (154 KB)


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