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How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle

 

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rhopstr  (A 711219)

Sep 12, 2012, 3:19 AM
Post #1 of 28 (3793 views)
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How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle Can't Post

Hi there,

I just reread my old post where I asked what to do if your cutaway is pulled by accident, for instance by someone else on exit.

As a sidenote, it's nice to see that my understanding of the gear has increased since I asked that question; the mechanics are clear in my mind now about how that scenario would play out.

Reading that post brought another question to mind though: what if it were the other handle that was pulled ?

So the scenario I'm wondering about goes like this:
- skydiver is in freefall
- reserve handle is pulled from the velcro
- reserve hasn't deployed

l would initially think about holding on to the reserve handle so that it won't cause the reserve to deploy in freefall and would then pull the main at a high altitude. When under canopy I'd try to get the reserve handle back in the velcro so that it won't cause the reserve to fire. I do believe I've heard something like this being discussed on my DZ by at least one instructor..

I would worry a lot about the opening and ride down though. If the reserve pin was pulled by the removal of the handle, leaving the pin just barely holding the closing loop, couldn't the opening forces possibly be able to release the last bit ? That would leave me with a two out scenario..

Assuming this is the right way to handle something like that I can't really think of a better alternative. Going for your reserve straight away would leave me with a canopy that couldn't be cut away if something went wrong with it. Which would also result in a two out scenario but this one would be without the option of cutting away the faulty canopy..

Would love to hear what others think about this, and / or if my reasoning isn't sound..


(This post was edited by rhopstr on Sep 12, 2012, 3:23 AM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Sep 12, 2012, 4:00 AM
Post #2 of 28 (3742 views)
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Re: [rhopstr] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

 I'd just pin it in place with my arm rather than hold onto it with my hand during the FF and opening shock. The opening shock could cause you to pull the handle completely.

Once under canopy, tuck it back into into the pocket.

The reserve pin is under some tension from the closing loop so its unlikely to just fall out.

But if you are aware of it, just be a bit more careful with your movements, until you are on the ground.

Of course good gear checks, and jumping with people who are not just going to grab your harness any old where will help prevent this in the first place. You can practise your grips and grip changes on the ground.

Next time your reserve is due for a repack, put it on, do a pracitce EP and pop the pin. That will give you a better idea of the force required to dislodge it.

Floating ripcords were reasonably common back in the days of main ripcord operated systems, inadvertent openings because of them were pretty rare, although many ripcord systems had two, three or even four pins on them.

Have you thought of your possible actions though, if you do have a reserve deploy while under canopy?. Several scenarios could come from that, each with different remedial actions.


(This post was edited by obelixtim on Sep 12, 2012, 4:08 AM)


rhopstr  (A 711219)

Sep 12, 2012, 5:10 AM
Post #3 of 28 (3709 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

I get that the reserve pin is held in place snugly, but it being pulled so that the end is way on the grommet is what I meant in my worst case scenario described above. Wondering if an opening could then get it to release the closing loop..

Quote:
Have you thought of your possible actions though, if you do have a reserve deploy while under canopy?. Several scenarios could come from that, each with different remedial actions.
I have, to sum it up in no particular order I'd say:
- main and reserve get entangled (not ok: 'repair' and / or chop)
- two out: side by side (ok, steer slowly into wind with largest, don't flare)
- two out: biplane (ok, steer slowly into wind with largest, don't flare)
- two out: downplane (not ok: chop)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Sep 12, 2012, 5:23 AM
Post #4 of 28 (3698 views)
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Re: [rhopstr] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I get that the reserve pin is held in place snugly, but it being pulled so that the end is way on the grommet is what I meant in my worst case scenario described above. Wondering if an opening could then get it to release the closing loop..

There's only one way to find out, open the main and see what happens. If you know your two-out procedures, all you can do is open the main and see how it goes.


sundevil777  (D License)

Sep 12, 2012, 9:10 AM
Post #5 of 28 (3600 views)
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Re: [rhopstr] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

The reserve opening after the main deploys would not be directly up into the main. It would trail behind and even below you until it inflated, so there is much less reason to fear the reserve opening after the main opening shock than the reserve opening simultaneous to the main.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Sep 12, 2012, 10:29 AM
Post #6 of 28 (3544 views)
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Re: [rhopstr] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
l would initially think about holding on to the reserve handle so that it won't cause the reserve to deploy in freefall and would then pull the main at a high altitude. When under canopy I'd try to get the reserve handle back in the velcro so that it won't cause the reserve to fire.
I've seen this to others on various jumps. Just leave it alone, don't let ANYONE touch it, try not to fly under anyone and if you're doing some sloppy style RW/VRW where people are funneling or randomly grabbing stuff, just move out of the way.

At pull time, ignore the floating handle and deploy your main normally. The G forces of the opening have never been enough to pull the pin, even with heavier metal handles, at least in any case I've known. Under canopy you may put it back in the pocket/on the velcro if you like. Check your pin, of course, after you land.

If you observe a floating handle on someone else, stop and point at it, but don't touch it. You could possibly pull it by mistake if you try to tuck it back in for someone else.

Does this all make sense to everyone? Anyone have any other ideas? Smile


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Sep 12, 2012, 10:31 AM
Post #7 of 28 (3542 views)
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Re: [rhopstr] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

Had it happen once a long time ago. Friend pointed to it and I saw it floating.

We were pretty high up, so I just put it back in the slot and pinched the velcro. Finished the dive.

If I was lower, I'd have held the handle and the webbing together at deployment. Re-pocket it under canopy.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Sep 12, 2012, 10:38 AM
Post #8 of 28 (3538 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah!
Whatever John said.

May I add another habit?

Next time you are hanging under your main canopy, look at your reserve ripcord. Where is the ball on the end of the cable?
Is the ball in the middle of your (metal) ripcord handle?
Is the ball near the bottom of your (metal) ripcord handle?
Is the ball near the top of your (metal) ripcord handle?
The ball will shift as your harness is tensioned by your main canopy opening.
File this picture in your mind as part of your "normal" canopy ride.
Then, the next time your reserve ripcord gets dislodged, you will have a much better idea about whether your reserve is likely to deploy under (your main) canopy.


rhopstr  (A 711219)

Sep 12, 2012, 3:21 PM
Post #9 of 28 (3464 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks sundevil777, I actually didn't think about how the reserve would open; well behind and / or below. That's a bit of piece of mind right there. Thanks!


rhopstr  (A 711219)

Sep 12, 2012, 3:27 PM
Post #10 of 28 (3462 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Next time you are hanging under your main canopy, look at your reserve ripcord. Where is the ball on the end of the cable?
Is the ball in the middle of your (metal) ripcord handle?
Is the ball near the bottom of your (metal) ripcord handle?
Is the ball near the top of your (metal) ripcord handle?
The ball will shift as your harness is tensioned by your main canopy opening.
File this picture in your mind as part of your "normal" canopy ride.
Then, the next time your reserve ripcord gets dislodged, you will have a much better idea about whether your reserve is likely to deploy under (your main) canopy.

Thanks for the reply; will definitely do exactly as described above on my next jump.

Glad I posted my question; appreciate the input a lot.


theonlyski  (D License)

Sep 12, 2012, 3:44 PM
Post #11 of 28 (3452 views)
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Re: [rhopstr] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

Or get a Vector with the spectra rip cord and don't sweat it. Tongue


sebinoslo  (B 96611)

Sep 14, 2012, 4:48 AM
Post #12 of 28 (3275 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

this actually happened to me not so long ago. i have flown quite a bit of tunnel and fly very stable on my back. it was supposed to be a 2 way tracking with a 10000+ jump coach. he spotted the lose handle right after exit at 13000ft

with that in mind i was comfortable holding on to the handle, rolling on my back (no more wind on the handle) and putting it back into the velcro, double checking it was as it should and move back on my belly waiting for pullout time. i was then still well over 8000ft.

many factors made this in my mind the best solution to this problem this time around


Rick  (D 28557)

Sep 14, 2012, 9:36 AM
Post #13 of 28 (3186 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yeah!
Whatever John said.

May I add another habit?

Next time you are hanging under your main canopy, look at your reserve ripcord. Where is the ball on the end of the cable?
Is the ball in the middle of your (metal) ripcord handle?
Is the ball near the bottom of your (metal) ripcord handle?
Is the ball near the top of your (metal) ripcord handle?
The ball will shift as your harness is tensioned by your main canopy opening.
File this picture in your mind as part of your "normal" canopy ride.
Then, the next time your reserve ripcord gets dislodged, you will have a much better idea about whether your reserve is likely to deploy under (your main) canopy.


great idea thank you


fcajump  (D 15598)

Sep 14, 2012, 11:20 AM
Post #14 of 28 (3150 views)
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Re: [rhopstr] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

I know that this discussion has focused on what to do from the first-person perspective. (and a good discussion it is)

For the newer folks I'd like to touch briefly on the question of what to do if you see someone else's handle loose.

Get their attention.
Point to the problem.
Be very careful not to put a hand on it. Let them know. Let them deal with it.

A few years ago there was a tragic accident when a newer jumper tried, with all good intentions, to help someone whose ripcord handle was loose. In that case it was at the door, but an ill-timed/unplanned deployment at any time can be very bad.

Be careful out there.
JW


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 14, 2012, 11:26 AM
Post #15 of 28 (3148 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

Strongly recommend you do not touch it.

I've been on 4-5 AFF's where student antics resulted in a dislodged reserve handle. We left it alone. No problems; deployment was never enough to "pull" it, and only one student even noticed.

Was on one dive where a 100-jump type noticed his handle floating and tried to hang on to it through opening so that opening shock wouldn't "pull" it. Result - dual deployment.


erdnarob  (D 364)

Sep 14, 2012, 1:56 PM
Post #16 of 28 (3124 views)
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Re: [rhopstr] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

In the future, I suggest you to get from UPT Vector a rip cord with a 1000 pounds proof Spectra line. This type of ripcord has a bungee inside and when accidently pulled out of the pocket returns against the rip cord housing.See the pictures.
Attachments: SPECTRA RC6.jpg (113 KB)
  SPECTRA RC5.jpg (118 KB)


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Sep 14, 2012, 2:05 PM
Post #17 of 28 (3120 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In the future, I suggest you to get from UPT Vector a rip cord with a 1000 pounds proof Spectra line. This type of ripcord has a bungee inside and when accidently pulled out of the pocket returns against the rip cord housing.See the pictures.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1J_zE3eFdw


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 14, 2012, 4:36 PM
Post #18 of 28 (3085 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In the future, I suggest you to get from UPT Vector a rip cord with a 1000 pounds proof Spectra line.

They sell them for other rigs, at any custom length you want??
Wouldn't you need a large size ripcord housing for the firgure 9 pin, or do they have ones for regular pins??

Or are you suggesting everyone throw out their rig in addition to the ripcord, and replace both, buying a Vector??

Maybe you weren't quite clear in your statement and only meant it for people who already owned a Vector III.Smile


erdnarob  (D 364)

Sep 21, 2012, 10:39 AM
Post #19 of 28 (2857 views)
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Re: [pchapman] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

I have mentioned the Vector III from UPT because they are the maker of such a ripcord. But I have heard about other people who have bought the pin (larger than conventional pins) and who have built their own ripcord with it because they like very much its sturdiness. This pin has no swaging at all, have a eyelet and is made in one piece of stainless steel. The cable in stainless steel or Spectra has a loop at the end which catches the pin just before the eyelet (see picture). Since the Spectra version has a bungee, there is no possibility of a floating rip cord out of reach. No idea if this kind on R/C is available for other rigs but a master rigger can built one with the pin.
Attachments: SPECTRA RC4.jpg (99.3 KB)


erdnarob  (D 364)

Sep 30, 2012, 10:20 AM
Post #20 of 28 (2633 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

You are really amazing because the big guy beside Bill Booth at 30 seconds and after on the video is myself at the 2007 PIA symposium held at Reno Nevada. When I saw that ripcord, I got one as soon as I could. Cool


erdnarob  (D 364)

Sep 30, 2012, 10:30 AM
Post #21 of 28 (2630 views)
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Re: [pchapman] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

I know it is first disturbing with respect to conventional rigs but the new Spectra (or steel cable) ripcord using big pin doesn't pass completely thru the housing and doesn't have to. This is why I have posted this picture where it is shown that from the closing loop to the beginning of the housing, you have 5 inches, when pulling just one inch or so is enough to get the pin out of the closing loop. I had two total mal and encountered no problem at all.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 30, 2012, 2:55 PM
Post #22 of 28 (2604 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
ripcord using big pin doesn't pass completely thru the housing and doesn't have to.

I did indeed make a silly error in my posting when I knew how the system works; the photo is useful for people. UPT does use the large diameter reserve cable housing as I stated, presumably for the large metal "pin puller" end of the cable for those who are using a steel ripcord cable. Still, the solution for everyone is not to junk their rigs and buy a Vector III.


CMiller  (B 30864)

Sep 30, 2012, 5:05 PM
Post #23 of 28 (2578 views)
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Re: [billvon] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

Wouldn't the best thing to do if your reserve handle is floating be to deploy your reserve instead of your main? That way you have a 0% of a dual out situation.

Leaving it be with a possibility that it could deploy along side your main seems like a worse situation.


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Oct 1, 2012, 3:27 AM
Post #24 of 28 (2545 views)
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Re: [CMiller] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wouldn't the best thing to do if your reserve handle is floating be to deploy your reserve instead of your main? That way you have a 0% of a dual out situation.

Leaving it be with a possibility that it could deploy along side your main seems like a worse situation.

You could also have a reserve malfunction.


potatoman  (Student)

Oct 1, 2012, 4:07 AM
Post #25 of 28 (2539 views)
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Re: [rhopstr] How to resprond to accidentally dislodged reserve handle [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you thought of what type of handsignal to give when you spot this in the air?

I started flying away from the rest, tucked it back into the valcro, back into the skydive.

REMEMBER, if it gets dislodged, lets take someone's foot or hand, it could be very close to fire(pin pulled). I would rather just tuck it away, and then open. Be prepared, good thinking of stuff like this.


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