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Vigil misfires this weekend?

 


theonlyski  (D License)

Sep 10, 2012, 6:24 PM
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Vigil misfires this weekend? Can't Post

I've heard of at least 2 Vigil misfires this weekend. One on the bottom end of a swoop and one on a tandem around 5-6k.

Any details?


justme12001  (D 29862)

Sep 10, 2012, 6:47 PM
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Re: [theonlyski] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nothing on either of these, but there was another one as well. Think it was Sunday morning.

Had one fire(not me) at normal opening altitude when the jumper deployed his main. So it was a two out, and he chopped the main.


barbarut  (B License)

Sep 10, 2012, 8:38 PM
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Re: [justme12001] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

Correct. I was watching when it happened. I was told that the jumper had an Argus and it misfired at 2500 ft with the main already deployed.


piisfish

Sep 11, 2012, 12:05 AM
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Re: [theonlyski] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

also from french magazine Paramag, they recently had in France 3 cases of AAD fires (both major current brands, non Speed versions), of fires during landing phase under highly loaded crossbraced canopies. Twice the same jumper in 2 weeks time.
http://paramag.fr/et-de-3-2/


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Sep 11, 2012, 6:43 AM
Post #5 of 25 (2663 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

Could someone translate this? I could do a google translate on it but those are usually missing some minor details and I want to make sure this info is right.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 11, 2012, 6:53 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

The paramag article didn't really say much specific.

It noted that there were 3 incidents in France this year, and one was on a Velo 103 at 1.8 loading. The 3 incidents are for all AAD manufacturers combined, although it doesn't specifically say whether 1 or more AAD brands were involved.

Other than that it is all general warnings about having the right settings or unit if you are highly loaded and swooping fast, blah blah blah, with links to French federation warning bulletins (with similar info), and a recap of the Adrian Nicholas death years ago.

Edit to add: It seems the previous warnings and bulletins used a wing loading of 2.2 as an example of where the risk really started to go up, but they note that there's more to it than just that, because in this case a loading of 1.8 was sufficient to set off an AAD.


(This post was edited by pchapman on Sep 11, 2012, 6:58 AM)


Premier Remster  (C License)

Sep 11, 2012, 8:08 AM
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Re: [pchapman] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

Something else this article mentioned was that this new event was at a higher elevation DZ, which may have "helped" in getting the vertical speed to into AAD fire mode with the less dense air even with a "lower" wingload of 1.8 (and no, it didn't say what the altitude of the DZ was).


(This post was edited by Remster on Sep 11, 2012, 8:09 AM)


piisfish

Sep 11, 2012, 8:26 AM
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Re: [Remster] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

the fires of the small fast canopies are certainly not misfires. They are correct fires, with canopy pilots exceeding the limits of the technology they have.

If you knew that your car would fire the airbags when you go over the speedlimit, how fast would you drive ?


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 11, 2012, 8:37 AM
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Re: [piisfish] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you knew that your car would fire the airbags when you go over the speedlimit, how fast would you drive ?

Mind you, it is handy that cars have speedometers. Smile


ronny2

Sep 11, 2012, 9:45 AM
Post #10 of 25 (2560 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

please change the title "Vigil misfires" other AAD are involved.


justme12001  (D 29862)

Sep 11, 2012, 10:09 AM
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Re: [barbarut] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

My mistake, was thinking it was a vigil. You are correct, it was an argus.


theonlyski  (D License)

Sep 11, 2012, 10:19 AM
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Re: [ronny2] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
please change the title "Vigil misfires" other AAD are involved.

I started the thread about two VIGIL fires... The thread was to discuss them.

One was on the bottom end of a swoop, that sounds like a "justified" fire.

However the other was at 5k on a tandem.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Sep 11, 2012, 4:13 PM
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Re: [theonlyski] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you "heard" of these incidents and are looking for further details then this information sounds scetchy at best.

Are you absolutely certain there were 2 misfires?

Are you absolutely certain they were Vigils?

If so how did you come to get the information?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 11, 2012, 9:53 PM
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Re: [Skydivesg] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If so how did you come to get the information?

What bearing does that have?


theonlyski  (D License)

Sep 12, 2012, 5:26 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
If so how did you come to get the information?

What bearing does that have?

Absolutely none. Apparently nobody involved wants to talk about two potentially deadly events. Oh well, maybe next time.Unsure


(This post was edited by theonlyski on Sep 12, 2012, 5:27 AM)


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Sep 12, 2012, 9:32 AM
Post #16 of 25 (2196 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
If so how did you come to get the information?

What bearing does that have?

Absolutely none. Apparently nobody involved wants to talk about two potentially deadly events. Oh well, maybe next time.Unsure

I dunno... it might help if you could at least help to triangulate where the events might have happened, so while I don't really care who told you, it might be nice to know that "misfire 1 was at a Wyoming DZ and misfire 2 was in New Hampshire." (Yes, I've deliberately chosen two states that I'm pretty sure don't have full-time dropzones since I have no idea where the incidents took place and don't want to get any rumors started Laugh).

I have Vigils in both my rigs - I have an interest in learning more about whether the fires were within the known parameters of the device or outside those parameters. I just happen to think there's better ways to get to information than "I heard that something happened somewhere."




Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Sep 12, 2012, 10:06 AM
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Re: [NWFlyer] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll get specific on it since I have had details passed to me since multiple people have messaged me and they are afraid to go public with the info.

Skydive the Farm was said to have had a Vigil fire on a tandem with video at 5000 feet. I started an incidents thread on this one. Vigil should have the unit and I am awaiting the results.

Another one was said to have occurred at Mountain Gravity in Switzerland last weekend, this one was a regular Vigil that fired on the bottom end of a 360 degree swoop on a canopy loaded at 2.0.




I'll put info out on another two I know of first hand.

Wingsuiter had one fire at about 4000 feet in the middle of a flight in Ohio early this summer. They were in the process of waiving off for deployment and next thing they knew they were under a canopy.

Another one in Ohio occurred last fall when a jumper was flying their pattern and was about to start a swoop and it ended up firing. This was after they had been under canopy for a bit. That unit was sent back to the factory and I never heard why it fired.


Abedy  (D 10153)

Sep 12, 2012, 11:04 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

Reading this I was reminded of a funny British TV series... See attachment Wink
Attachments: trigger_happy_aad.jpg (60.6 KB)


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Sep 13, 2012, 12:36 PM
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Re: [Abedy] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

For the record, there was also an Expert Cypres fired labor day weekend in California at the bottom end of a 900+ degree turn. Jumper landed the two out biplane. Mind you, this was not a misfire, the unit acted within the parameters it was designed for.

Pertinent Info:
JFX loaded at 2.4. Turn started at 1100' and did a ~990 degree turn. Estimated firing altitude 150-100'.

Jumper plans to move to a Speed Cypres. I'm actually quite amazed that these incidents are happening at the rate and frequency we are hearing. If you swoop, get the right tool - or don't use an AAD.


linebckr83  (D 30571)

Sep 13, 2012, 12:44 PM
Post #21 of 25 (2007 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For the record, there was also an Expert Cypres fired labor day weekend in California at the bottom end of a 900+ degree turn. Jumper landed the two out biplane. Mind you, this was not a misfire, the unit acted within the parameters it was designed for.

Pertinent Info:
JFX loaded at 2.4. Turn started at 1100' and did a ~990 degree turn. Estimated firing altitude 150-100'.

Jumper plans to move to a Speed Cypres. I'm actually quite amazed that these incidents are happening at the rate and frequency we are hearing. If you swoop, get the right tool - or don't use an AAD.

Just wanted to make sure that wasn't a typo. 900+ degrees at 1100'? I know a PD factory guy doing half that turn at the same or slightly higher altitude.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Sep 13, 2012, 12:46 PM
Post #22 of 25 (2003 views)
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Re: [linebckr83] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

That is a first hand account.


LloydDobbler  (D 30655)

Sep 13, 2012, 9:48 PM
Post #23 of 25 (1898 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Jumper plans to move to a Speed Cypres. I'm actually quite amazed that these incidents are happening at the rate and frequency we are hearing. If you swoop, get the right tool - or don't use an AAD.

^^THIS.

Seriously, folks. If you're throwing a 900 on a JFX, you oughtta know better than to fly a Cypres Expert or a Vigil (or any other standard, non-speed AAD).

Are we going to need an AAD rating now? UnsurePirate


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 14, 2012, 11:30 AM
Post #24 of 25 (1803 views)
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Re: [LloydDobbler] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Seriously, folks. If you're throwing a 900 on a JFX, you oughtta know better than to
>fly a Cypres Expert or a Vigil (or any other standard, non-speed AAD).

In addition, if you are doing that (and jumping a container with a tiny main and reserve) a realistic appraisal of the risks to your life would not include "death due to lack of AAD." Save the money.


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Sep 14, 2012, 12:18 PM
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Vigil misfires this weekend? [In reply to] Can't Post

The Expert CYPRES ceases operation below approximately 130 feet AGL.

The Speed CYPRES at approximately 330 feet AGL.

Changing the modes is free (less shipping to/from SSK) and why people still don't Crazy



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