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Tandem double mal

 

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oozzee  (D License)

Aug 31, 2012, 5:42 PM
Post #1 of 57 (5890 views)
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Tandem double mal Can't Post

have video in a few


oozzee  (D License)

Aug 31, 2012, 6:24 PM
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

attachement is too large...
working on it..


oozzee  (D License)

Aug 31, 2012, 6:51 PM
Post #3 of 57 (5814 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

link
http://youtu.be/XaOvkB8pXng

Would appreciate if someone knows how to direct this link,,thx


(This post was edited by oozzee on Aug 31, 2012, 6:52 PM)


Divalent  (C 40494)

Aug 31, 2012, 7:03 PM
Post #4 of 57 (5799 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
link
http://youtu.be/XaOvkB8pXng
Would appreciate if someone knows how to direct this link,,thx

clicky


oozzee  (D License)

Aug 31, 2012, 7:49 PM
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Re: [Divalent] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

The main was a Precision 365...rarely gave a good opening although this was the worst tandem line twists I've ever had.
Sigma reserve...reserve prob is debatable..


yoink

Aug 31, 2012, 8:16 PM
Post #6 of 57 (5765 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

*Disclaimer - I'm not a tandem instructor and know zero about tandems...

If I started to get linetwists on my sport canopy I would have both hands on the risers at least trying to do something about it - either pulling the risers closer together at the bottom, or spreading them at the top to try and mitigate the extent of the twists.

Filming the deployment with a handcam seems to prevent any action being taken other than to sit there and watch it spin up as one hand is busy...


Is it impossible to do anything about tandem linetwists as they're forming?


Other than that - could you describe the mal on the reserve? It looked kinda like the slider got hung up on something?



Still - jumped. Landed. Good job! WinkLaugh


(This post was edited by yoink on Aug 31, 2012, 8:19 PM)


oozzee  (D License)

Aug 31, 2012, 8:27 PM
Post #7 of 57 (5762 views)
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Re: [yoink] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

Not much you can do while the canopy is twisting up like that..
Be careful you dont get your hands caught and to keep stable so you dont start oscillating...
canopy was flying fast and losing altitude pretty quickly..
have had these start spinning before..
Opted for safe,stable cutaway...
Strange reserve opening,,,skyhook,,no opening "power' to force slider down,,,hung in steering line cascades..


ShcShc11  (A 15638)

Aug 31, 2012, 11:29 PM
Post #8 of 57 (5712 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

eee...
can't comment much on it but hopefully you guys got out alright! Couldn't have been pleasant for the client.


xcelskydiving

Sep 1, 2012, 9:00 AM
Post #9 of 57 (5596 views)
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Re: [ShcShc11] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
eee...
can't comment much on it but hopefully you guys got out alright! Couldn't have been pleasant for the client.
__________________________________________________

With line twists such as the ones depicted on the video, it is pretty much impossible to seperate the risers as you were trained to do on your sport rig.
I have had numerous situations such as these and have had my student assist by swinging there legs with mine in an effort to create momentum and begin unwinding...stay altitude aware...decision altitude is 3000', this is why we open up at 5500', to give us time to work out these problems.
The reserve opening is very common, these canopiesVR360 are packed in a stall configuration, the canopy will buck and oscilate until you clear the toggles...a little heart wrenching the first time you have one, but normal...
The handicam was clearly not a topic of discussion, and in no way hindered or added to the situation at hand....


Arvoitus  (D 3917)

Sep 1, 2012, 9:38 AM
Post #10 of 57 (5581 views)
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Re: [yoink] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is it impossible to do anything about tandem linetwists as they're forming?

IMO the only difference between solo line twists and tandem line twists is that its much harder to kick out of tandem line twists since you have another person hanging off of you.

Personally I never even try to kick out of a line twist, I use the method described in this thread. Granted I've never had as massive line twists on a tandem as on the video linked in this thread, however I've had smaller (one full rotation) and that method works just as well on a tandem as it does on a solo jump. And on a tandem its much easier since, once you get the line twists twisted down from the lines onto the risers, they will untwists on their own after that. You don't need to anything with your legs.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Sep 2, 2012, 1:13 AM
Post #11 of 57 (5463 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

I know of two people still living who have lived through real-life double malfunctions: myself and Eric Butts. Both of ours were with tandem rigs. On mine, I got my reserve mostly inflated at around 1000 feet with the main entangled all through the lines and around my body. Eric had a line-over on his reserve in Hawaii.

It is not fun

Chuck


VideoFly  (D 25621)

Sep 2, 2012, 6:56 AM
Post #12 of 57 (5425 views)
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Re: [yoink] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

What is more important? Using both hands to try to clear problems or using one hand to deal with a problem while the other hand with the camera documents potential disaster?

When safety may be compromised, the video should be over.


oozzee  (D License)

Sep 2, 2012, 8:20 PM
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Re: [VideoFly] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

MMMmmm...
I'm no expert,,,
Have only 12,000 skydives,,
...7000 tandems......
When faced with a line twist like that be 'VERY' careful of your next move...

That was a "no-win"situation....Sometimes you need to accept the reality..
The fact that i continued to video is irrelevant..the camera was on anyways and was not my primary concern..
The malfunction was my primary concern,,
Altitude pre-determined the cutaway..
If you ever have severe line twists like that on a tandem or your sport rig treat it with kidgloves,,You might turn a safe,stable cutaway into wild spinning situation..
The man in the seat,makes the call...


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 3, 2012, 4:36 AM
Post #14 of 57 (5288 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

To lessen the time to individually analyze the video, can you explain what was happening to the reserve in the video?

Some sort of bucking. So was it stalling? I know the VR 360 reserves do open on the edge of stall. It was unusual though that things weren't symmetrical, that the tandem pair were swinging left and right, almost to the point of line twist. Was that self induced on the toggles, or was that from going in and out of stalls? I don't know, but that seems unusual, as normally I thought such stalls on opening are pretty symmetrical with no twisting.

I suppose the stalling cycle was encouraged by the manner of cutaway: A very slow speed situation from a fully open canopy, with airflow from behind due to flying backwards with line twists.

(We don't fine tune our reserve brake settings for the type of jump expected, unlike say the DBS in BASE...)

All that probably helped get the reserve into the stall-unstall cycle, without it having a good chance to get some forward flying speed. If the canopy opens without quite stalling, then it can be fine, but if it rocks at all, it can get into a self-sustaining cycle of stalls. (I personally barely experienced rocking on my one Sigma chop, but I once had a Parafoil that exhibited that type of behaviour on opening.)

A friend on a Sigma recently had a cutaway from a mal, and on the reserve got the stalling cycle, AND some line twists. Now that combination was less than fun! - but he managed to untwist.


Tink1717  (D 12524)

Sep 3, 2012, 6:35 AM
Post #15 of 57 (5243 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

Good job man. I've had line twists that bad, but never had them that wouldn't unwind like that. I quit doing tandems this season after I did my 1000th tandem and don't miss it. I never had to chop and had no injuries, so I consider that a clean carreer. Nno better time to get out. Good luck.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Sep 3, 2012, 12:32 PM
Post #16 of 57 (5157 views)
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Re: [Tink1717] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Good job man. I've had line twists that bad, but never had them that wouldn't unwind like that. I quit doing tandems this season after I did my 1000th tandem and don't miss it. I never had to chop and had no injuries, so I consider that a clean carreer. Nno better time to get out. Good luck.

1,000 tandems and no chops?
Unimpressed
Please buy my next lottery ticket.


Tink1717  (D 12524)

Sep 3, 2012, 1:17 PM
Post #17 of 57 (5142 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile I'd do that, but you should know that it hasn't worked for me yet.... Wink


Divalent  (C 40494)

Sep 3, 2012, 3:10 PM
Post #18 of 57 (5117 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1,000 tandems and no chops?
Unimpressed
Please buy my next lottery ticket.

Although I don't mean to diminish Tink's achievement, is that so unusual? What is the industry average for chops?

A general figure I hear bandied about is one cutaway per ~700 jumps on average. If tandem rigs are similar and they are random, you'd expect almost 25% of TI's to make to 1000 jumps without one. (It drops to about 14% if the rate is 1 in 500; or about one out of about every 7 TIs would achieve that distinction).


kflying  (D 14045)

Sep 3, 2012, 9:14 PM
Post #19 of 57 (5064 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
MMMmmm...
I'm no expert,,,
Have only 12,000 skydives,,
...7000 tandems......
When faced with a line twist like that be 'VERY' careful of your next move...

That was a "no-win"situation....Sometimes you need to accept the reality..
The fact that i continued to video is irrelevant..the camera was on anyways and was not my primary concern..
The malfunction was my primary concern,,
Altitude pre-determined the cutaway..
If you ever have severe line twists like that on a tandem or your sport rig treat it with kidgloves,,You might turn a safe,stable cutaway into wild spinning situation..
The man in the seat,makes the call...
I am in NO way an expert - only 2600 jumps/1200 tandems/4 tandem chops - to this newbie, you did it right! (And yes, I am ruining the chop average - all tension knots years ago before the highly improved gear!)


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Sep 3, 2012, 10:53 PM
Post #20 of 57 (5046 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the video.

I jump Sigmas. One day I had line twists similar to yours that I couldn't untwist. I would start to untwist, get 90 degrees and turn back towards the rear again. Shit, gonna have to chop. Crazy

Then I realized that the passenger's legs were sticking out like a weather vane. We'd get sideways and the wind from our canopy's forward speed would push us around backwards. I told him to tuck his legs back between mine. From there we were able to untwist normally. Cool

I hope this experience of mine may be useful to others in future line twist situations.


freeflymat  (E 2443)

Sep 4, 2012, 2:21 AM
Post #21 of 57 (5031 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

Second that,
jump sigmas with 330's and the top tip from my examiner I still use to this day is to get the student to basically cross their arms and arch. TM to do like wise besides crossing arms no input just let it unwind, has worked for me several times. Obviously this doesn't suit all and every occasion, but with a square canopy above me and over a 1000 tandems have never had to kick out of a tandem line twist yet.
"YET"


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 4, 2012, 5:20 AM
Post #22 of 57 (4994 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Then I realized that the passenger's legs were sticking out like a weather vane.

Indeed I think body position is why even for solo jumps, when someone says "I was line twisted and spinning!", they so often add "on my back". A de-arched sitting position is 'unstable' in the freefall sense of not being stable belly to the wind. Arching and sticking limbs out to one side can help to start untwisting.


linebckr83  (D 30571)

Sep 4, 2012, 8:15 AM
Post #23 of 57 (4945 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks for the video.

I jump Sigmas. One day I had line twists similar to yours that I couldn't untwist. I would start to untwist, get 90 degrees and turn back towards the rear again. Shit, gonna have to chop. Crazy

Then I realized that the passenger's legs were sticking out like a weather vane. We'd get sideways and the wind from our canopy's forward speed would push us around backwards. I told him to tuck his legs back between mine. From there we were able to untwist normally. Cool

I hope this experience of mine may be useful to others in future line twist situations.

Yes! I had the same experience on an Icarus 330. Thought I was gonna have to chop too but then realized the same thing. Since it opens it full flight we were facing backwards because of our wind vaning knees. As we tried to kick out we would get 90 degrees and the wind just pushed us back to the starting point. I've learned the "stand up" technique where I ask the student to stand up like they are doing a toothpick jump into a pool. Sure enough, we began spinning out of the twists immediately!


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Sep 4, 2012, 8:41 AM
Post #24 of 57 (4929 views)
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Re: [linebckr83] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the replies. I'm glad to see many of us are figuring out those line twists. Isn't it weird to have such an "Ah Ha!"moment under a line twisted canopy with 200 pounds of person on the front?LaughLaugh

I've tried to spread the word on my experiences with this, but haven't been very successful. Maybe all of us in this forum talking about it will help.Smile


BMFin

Sep 4, 2012, 6:21 PM
Post #25 of 57 (4783 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Tandem double mal [In reply to] Can't Post

The TI handled it like a pro.

May I ask why this is called a double mal ? To me it looked like the reserve only had some twists, but cleared it self.


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