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How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly?

 

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BravestDog

Sep 1, 2012, 11:13 AM
Post #1 of 55 (7143 views)
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How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? Can't Post

Curious how a pilot, Mike Mullins or any pilot in the business, get his airplane on the ground so fast after dropping off the jumpers?

What does a pilot do to the plane/motors/props...that allows them to get the plane on the ground quickly? If you could compare that to a standard descent as an example, that would be helpful.

Is this fast descent hard on the plane?


(This post was edited by BravestDog on Sep 1, 2012, 11:25 AM)


theplummeter  (C License)

Sep 1, 2012, 11:29 AM
Post #2 of 55 (7093 views)
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Re: [BravestDog] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

In the case of the King Air (or most turbines for that matter) you simply idle both engines and they fall like rocks. Turbines aren't like reciprocating engines as there is no risk of shock cooling. Add big propellers to the front which flatten at low power settings and create a ton of drag and higher weights and it's really not hard to lose the altitude.

Unless the pilot is really sloppy the airframe shouldn't take too much of a load either, although most airline passengers probably wouldn't care much for the descent.


BravestDog

Sep 1, 2012, 11:51 AM
Post #3 of 55 (7073 views)
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Re: [theplummeter] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you reverse the props and add power to a turbine to get them to drop faster or do you just bring the engines to idle and that automatically flattens the prop angle causing more drag which makes you descend faster?

Are you pulling negative g's on the descent? Why do you say most airline passengers wouldn't care much for the descent? Is it the pitch of the descent, the view out the window, the negative g's?

Does a pilot spiral the plane down or follow a glide path?

What kind of pitch/bank angles are they using?


(This post was edited by BravestDog on Sep 1, 2012, 12:06 PM)


theplummeter  (C License)

Sep 1, 2012, 12:08 PM
Post #4 of 55 (7057 views)
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Re: [BravestDog] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do you reverse the props and add power to a turbine to get them to drop faster or do you just bring the engines to idle and that automatically flattens the prop angle causing more drag which makes you descend faster?

Are you pulling negative g's on the descent? Why do you say most airline passengers wouldn't care much for the descent? Is it the pitch of the descent, the view out the window, the negative g's?

Does a pilot spiral the plane down or follow a glide path?

What kind of pitch angle are they using?

Airplanes do not use reverse in flight. The propellers flatten as the power comes back to idle. The propellers are governed to maintain a certain RPM, so as power is added the governor increases the pitch of the blades to maintain the RPM and as power is decreased the blades flatten to maintain the RPM. At some point (every engine installation/fuel control/prop governor is different) the blades will go to their flattest pitch angle and RPM will decrease.

Most pilots bank the aircraft to efficiently lose altitude. Negative G forces depend on how steep the pitch and bangles are during the descent. In a Cessna, more often the pilot is holding the nose slightly up with the elevator resulting in positive G forces but a steep bank angle and high rate of descent. I haven't flown jumpers in King Airs, so I'm not sure how they do their descent or what it feels like.

An emergency descent in a King Air has the pilot idle both engines, use one notch of flaps, put the wheels down and then push the nose over and bank slightly until you reach the gear extened speed limit. In the airplane I last did a checkride in the nose was 35 degrees below the horizon, and I was losing over 4000 feet per minute at 156 knots.


vpjr  (D 14158)

Sep 1, 2012, 1:55 PM
Post #5 of 55 (7003 views)
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Re: [theplummeter] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

No pilot is doing or should be doing Negative Gs. Crap flies all over the cabin during Negative Gs. During the push over after the jumpers have left the aircraft may get slightly less than 1 G but not near 0 G. as the aircraft reaches the max speed the pilot wants to go then he will pull back slightly increasing the g loading for a short time but usually not more than 1.5 gs for 10 sec. The aircraft remains at this stabilized speed and rate until the pilot must level off for the pattern or flare.
The dramatic looking maneuver seen where the plane passes the jumpers. After the last jumper leaves the pilot rolls the aircraft and lets the nose fall. The roll during the fall keeps positive gs on the aircraft thought out the maneuver. Done correctly and a glass of water would stay on the dash. Done incorrectly the pilot could over speed and or over positive G the aircraft.
King Airs are sleek aircraft and have a higher Vne speed than other jump ships so that means that they can descend at a faster airspeed and can have a very high rate of descent and stay in safety margins.
A skydiver actually falls pretty slow compared to some planes I have flown.


fastphil  (D 5801)

Sep 1, 2012, 1:56 PM
Post #6 of 55 (7000 views)
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Re: [BravestDog] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

My brother used to fly twin otters for Spaceland, and I would occasionally fly right seat if I wasn't on a jump. I was always amazed at how close he could stay to the free falling jumpers on the descent; quite a rush in its own...


BravestDog

Sep 1, 2012, 2:45 PM
Post #7 of 55 (6961 views)
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Re: [vpjr] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not sure how to phrase this, but I'll try.

Is it possible to roll the airplane, dive the airplane, and always remain at 1G and will the water in the glass always remain level, or will the glass remain on the dashboard and the level of water change angles in relationship to the glass? I guess there's level to the horizon and level to the relationship of the glass when it's level.

So if you closed your eyes, would you know if the plane was rolling if the water remains level in the glass during a roll?

In reply to:
No pilot is doing or should be doing Negative Gs. Crap flies all over the cabin during Negative Gs. During the push over after the jumpers have left the aircraft may get slightly less than 1 G but not near 0 G. as the aircraft reaches the max speed the pilot wants to go then he will pull back slightly increasing the g loading for a short time but usually not more than 1.5 gs for 10 sec. The aircraft remains at this stabilized speed and rate until the pilot must level off for the pattern or flare.
The dramatic looking maneuver seen where the plane passes the jumpers. After the last jumper leaves the pilot rolls the aircraft and lets the nose fall. The roll during the fall keeps positive gs on the aircraft thought out the maneuver. Done correctly and a glass of water would stay on the dash. Done incorrectly the pilot could over speed and or over positive G the aircraft.
King Airs are sleek aircraft and have a higher Vne speed than other jump ships so that means that they can descend at a faster airspeed and can have a very high rate of descent and stay in safety margins.
A skydiver actually falls pretty slow compared to some planes I have flown.


BravestDog

Sep 1, 2012, 2:49 PM
Post #8 of 55 (6958 views)
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Re: [fastphil] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Does the airplane spiral down around the jumpers or does it descend at a plumb/vertical angle alongside the jumpers?


In reply to:
My brother used to fly twin otters for Spaceland, and I would occasionally fly right seat if I wasn't on a jump. I was always amazed at how close he could stay to the free falling jumpers on the descent; quite a rush in its own...


(This post was edited by BravestDog on Sep 1, 2012, 3:11 PM)


vpjr  (D 14158)

Sep 1, 2012, 3:14 PM
Post #9 of 55 (6934 views)
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Re: [BravestDog] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes it is possible.


BravestDog

Sep 1, 2012, 3:22 PM
Post #10 of 55 (6929 views)
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Re: [vpjr] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

I asked a few questions, so I'm not sure what the "Yes it is possible", is answering.

In reply to:
Yes it is possible.


RM1  (D 28681)

Sep 1, 2012, 3:49 PM
Post #11 of 55 (6900 views)
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Re: [BravestDog] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMWxuKcD6vE

Someone else can make it clicky but 40s in should answer your question.


TSISK  (B 36373)

Sep 1, 2012, 3:52 PM
Post #12 of 55 (6888 views)
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Re: [RM1] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

clickySmile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMWxuKcD6vE


(This post was edited by TSISK on Sep 1, 2012, 4:01 PM)


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Sep 1, 2012, 3:55 PM
Post #13 of 55 (6884 views)
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Re: [RM1] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMWxuKcD6vE

Someone else can make it clicky but 40s in should answer your question.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Sep 1, 2012, 4:30 PM
Post #14 of 55 (6854 views)
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Re: [BravestDog] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I asked a few questions, so I'm not sure what the "Yes it is possible", is answering.

In reply to:
Yes it is possible.

Yes, it is possible to keep a glass of water on the dash during a rollover/pitchup. I don't think a regular post jump descent would do it, but it is possible.

I've ridden right seat observer with Mullins.

He basically rolls the airplane towards a very steep bank and lets the nose fall towards the ground. I don't think he ever goes inverted, but it sure feels like it. Fairly strong positive g load.
With power at idle, he is in a near vertical dive, with the airspeed up near the top of the yellow arc.

It's pretty cool.

And this is from one observer ride a few years ago, but I'm a pilot, so I understand how the things fly.
If he comes on here and says: "No, that's wrong, I do it this way", listen to him over me. Wink


BravestDog

Sep 1, 2012, 4:51 PM
Post #15 of 55 (6834 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's the flat pitch of the propellers that are acting like a giant fan to slow him down, yes? If you could not control the pitch of the propellers, would this type of descent be possible, or would you go to fast and risk ripping the wings off? Can a Cessna 182 make a descent like the King Air?

What would happen if you put the propellers in reverse while in these steep dive? Could you stop the airplane or make it go back up if you could keep the tail over the nose?

Does Mike Mullins take observers sitting up front on a regular basis or does he prefer to keep observers out and do they pay the same rate of $26?

Does his jumps ever get cheaper than $26 or is that the going rate? I'm comparing this to the Twin Otter at the Parachute Center which costs only $15. Is his King Air the most high performance/fastest jump ship in business?

In reply to:

Yes, it is possible to keep a glass of water on the dash during a rollover/pitchup. I don't think a regular post jump descent would do it, but it is possible.

I've ridden right seat observer with Mullins.

He basically rolls the airplane towards a very steep bank and lets the nose fall towards the ground. I don't think he ever goes inverted, but it sure feels like it. Fairly strong positive g load.
With power at idle, he is in a near vertical dive, with the airspeed up near the top of the yellow arc.

It's pretty cool.

And this is from one observer ride a few years ago, but I'm a pilot, so I understand how the things fly.
If he comes on here and says: "No, that's wrong, I do it this way", listen to him over me. Wink


(This post was edited by BravestDog on Sep 1, 2012, 6:06 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Sep 1, 2012, 6:56 PM
Post #16 of 55 (6762 views)
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Re: [BravestDog] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Does his jumps ever get cheaper than $26 or is that the going rate? I'm comparing this to the Twin Otter at the Parachute Center which costs only $15. Is his King Air the most high performance/fastest jump ship in business?

$26 is the going rate (+/- a buck or two) for full altitude (13k-ish) jumps in the US. The Parachute Center does jumps for less because they don't spend money on required maintenence and inspections of their airplanes. This fact has been proven in post-accident investigations and by the FAA.


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Sep 1, 2012, 11:25 PM
Post #17 of 55 (6651 views)
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Re: [BravestDog] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Mike Mullins kicks ass. Fastest to altitude and fastest back to the ground, usually around the same time the first jumpers start landing. Those 750 HP engines make a difference (if that's what he's got)


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Sep 2, 2012, 3:43 AM
Post #18 of 55 (6595 views)
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Re: [BravestDog] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

High bank angle in descent gives you little advantage. The coefficient of lift is low at high speed. What makes a plane descend at low power and high speed is form/prop drag. Spiraling just loads the wing up needlessly. In a plane I flew (twin otter) I descended at near 6000 feet per minute (fpm) with wings level and 160 knots (top of the green arc). I got down to pattern altitude in 2 minutes. So banking and yanking is going to save me what? A few seconds? Many jump planes are 50 years old. I tried to take could care of.the planes I flew. And I was still able to fly 30+ loads a day. Why? Because fuel efficiency and turn time (takeoff to landing) is reduced by how well you climbed! Not how fast you descended.

When I started flying jumpers I was taught "you gotta do a 60 degree bank to get it down". This is total bunk in a Cessna 182. It's hard on the plane and considering many 182 jump planes were built in the 50s and 60s I'd worry about metal fatigue.

I developed a box pattern approach and never, EVER try to spiral down "with" the jumpers. That's the fastest way to running into them. We just saw another collision between a Caravan and a 3 jumpers. It killed one jumper. You are the jump pilot. The lift operator. You are not part of the show.

And this is an amazing line of questions from someone who registered in 2003 but only has 80ish posts. Why the sudden interest? You almost sound like a reporter. Just curious.


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Sep 2, 2012, 3:59 AM
Post #19 of 55 (6585 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought I remembered you. Remember this troll down memory lane?

http://www.dropzone.com/...i?post=881518#881518


twatterpilot  (A License)

Sep 2, 2012, 4:55 AM
Post #20 of 55 (6558 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I thought I remembered you. Remember this troll down memory lane?

http://www.dropzone.com/...i?post=881518#881518

Yeah, I'm with you on this Chris...I have my reservations about how/why some of these questions are being asked...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVfBPMzlLSU


(This post was edited by twatterpilot on Sep 2, 2012, 4:58 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Sep 2, 2012, 5:42 AM
Post #21 of 55 (6528 views)
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Re: [BravestDog] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I'm going to agree with Chris on this one. You do seem to be asking some odd, slightly loaded questions, and ti does look like that's all you do here.

I would suggest that nobody replies to your posts any further until you fess up and fill out your profile. Who are you, and where do you jump?


dthames  (B 37674)

Sep 2, 2012, 7:24 AM
Post #22 of 55 (6484 views)
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Re: [BravestDog] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What would happen if you put the propellers in reverse while in these steep dive? Could you stop the airplane or make it go back up if you could keep the tail over the nose?

I recall a book about test pilots where a test was done with a C-130 to determine if this type of a maneuver (reverse thrust) would work for emergency decent. I dont recall specifics but I think it had some hairy moments and made it into the book as noteworthy.


godfrog

Sep 2, 2012, 8:15 AM
Post #23 of 55 (6445 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
High bank angle in descent gives you little advantage. The coefficient of lift is low at high speed. What makes a plane descend at low power and high speed is form/prop drag. Spiraling just loads the wing up needlessly. In a plane I flew (twin otter) I descended at near 6000 feet per minute (fpm) with wings level and 160 knots (top of the green arc). I got down to pattern altitude in 2 minutes. So banking and yanking is going to save me what? A few seconds? Many jump planes are 50 years old. I tried to take could care of.the planes I flew. And I was still able to fly 30+ loads a day. Why? Because fuel efficiency and turn time (takeoff to landing) is reduced by how well you climbed! Not how fast you descended.

When I started flying jumpers I was taught "you gotta do a 60 degree bank to get it down". This is total bunk in a Cessna 182. It's hard on the plane and considering many 182 jump planes were built in the 50s and 60s I'd worry about metal fatigue.

I developed a box pattern approach and never, EVER try to spiral down "with" the jumpers. That's the fastest way to running into them. We just saw another collision between a Caravan and a 3 jumpers. It killed one jumper. You are the jump pilot. The lift operator. You are not part of the show.

And this is an amazing line of questions from someone who registered in 2003 but only has 80ish posts. Why the sudden interest? You almost sound like a reporter. Just curious.
____________________________________________________________
This is the same techique I always used with 182's and 207, set manifold pressure and fly straight using a box pattern while decendinding.


petejones45  (C License)

Sep 2, 2012, 11:21 PM
Post #24 of 55 (6224 views)
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Re: [BravestDog] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Curious how a pilot, Mike Mullins or any pilot in the business, get his airplane on the ground so fast after dropping off the jumpers?

What does a pilot do to the plane/motors/props...that allows them to get the plane on the ground quickly? If you could compare that to a standard descent as an example, that would be helpful.

Is this fast descent hard on the plane?

he brings it straight down


BravestDog

Sep 2, 2012, 11:23 PM
Post #25 of 55 (6222 views)
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Re: [davelepka] How does Mike Mullins get his King Air on the ground so quickly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Davelepka, diverdriver, twatterpilot,

I was hoping to ask some simple questions regarding Skydiving and want people to stay on topic without making False Accusations, Speculation and Comments that are Off Topic especially if it involves me, which it has. I'm not here to be your friend or to be popular. I don't need to know and have no desire to know who you are. I'm interested in asking some questions and learning something. My questions are on topic and relative to the forum.

Would you politely remove your off topic posts to my questions before I contact the website administrator and have them do it for you? If that is necessary, then you will be wasting their time and my time because of YOUR inappropriate public behavior.

If I wish to remain anonymous, guess what, it's NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS and it's probably a good idea. Ever hear of Identity Theft, Psychopaths, Sociopaths, Cyber Bullies, Mentally Ill Violent people who want to harm you etc? Guess what, they exist everywhere.

Your responses are Off Topic, Accusatory, Speculatory and you are saying this in a public forum. Amounts to inappropriate behavior.

If you feel the need to Speculate, Investigate, whatever...Use Private Messaging, your telephone and leave your responses out of my posts. I do not want you to post your responses to my questions if they are going to be off topic, accusatory and speculative

In reply to:
I'm going to agree with Chris on this one. You do seem to be asking some odd, slightly loaded questions, and ti does look like that's all you do here.

I would suggest that nobody replies to your posts any further until you fess up and fill out your profile. Who are you, and where do you jump?


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