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Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump???

 

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Sharksblood  (B 37851)

Aug 30, 2012, 12:13 AM
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Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? Can't Post

I did my AFF Level 1 class and jump last Saturday and thankfully everything ended well with a nice landing, but the skydive didn't go as planned and I am still not sure I understand what happened even after the debrief with the instructors. I feel I need to get this clear in my head before I try to jump again.

I took my position in the door, right foot forward on the ledge, left foot behind it, hands on the forward door opening. I leaned out the door, Chest out, I looked right and "Check in" with My first instructor, I looked left and "Check out" with my second instructor. Rock forward "1", rock backward "2", AND JUMP!!!

I remembered "I must arch my pelvis forward and count to 'four one thousand'"as I ride out of the prop blast and settle into the stable belly down flying position.

But Holy Crist, the turbulence was unbelievable. I was trying to do my count, but my body was being blasted and trying to twist from side to side. It was like someone was trying to flip me over on both sides and shaking the hell out of me. I was trying to keep the body position I was taught, but my arms were flailing uncontrollably and I was shaking so much I couldn't even focus on the sky.

I tried to keep my focus on my count to 4,000 and look at my altimeter for the prescribed check, but my arm was still shaking and flailing so much I couldn't see the altimeter to get the reading. I tried to check my heading and the horizon, but I still couldn't focus on the sky or anything else when I looked ahead.

I decided I would just go to the next item in my maneuvers, which was to check right and left with my instructors. I look to my right to check in with my first instructor. HE WAS NO WHERE IN SIGHT!

I remembered in training they said if you are separated from your instructors, just pull your chute.

I needed to see about the second instructor first. I look to my left. HE WASN'T THERE EITHER! ---But before I try to pull my chute, I saw out of the corner of my eye that The second instructor was still with me, but he was not next to me, but kind of behind and above me. I couldn't pull my parachute then or it would deploy into him.

Since The instructor was still with me and not telling me otherwise I thought maybe I should try to continue with my planned practice touches of the ripcord. The violent shaking had not gotten any better and I still had no idea what my altitude was, but I tried to move my right arm to make the first practice touch. I couldn't get my arm to move past my shoulder for the shaking and twisting I was being thrown around with.

I was thinking this is not good. I had to see what my altitude was...

BOOOOM!

Everything suddenly stopped. I realize my parachute had deployed. I looked up and saw that the chute was open and everything looked good. I made a normal safe landing and went to find my instructors to see what happened.

I thought I must have screwed up really bad. My instructor said
"You didn't do anything wrong. We had a problem matching your fall rate. It happens sometimes where some people fall at a faster than normal rate. We weren't prepared for it and couldn't keep up with you."

"They clocked you at 153 miles per hour. You made a perfect exit, but as soon as we went out, The other instructor and I were vertical above you hanging on and trying to stay with you. We were crashing into each other as we tried to stay with you, but we couldn't keep up."

"The other instructor peeled off and I stayed with you to try to stabilize and catch up, but I still couldn't keep up, so I pulled your reserve at 6,000 feet."

When I went out I felt all the violent shaking and I thought I had bad body position so I kept trying to arch more.

The instructor said "Your body position was great. The shaking was the other instructor and Me banging into each other while we were hanging onto you trying to keep up."

I weigh 225 pounds and wondered if my fall rate had anything to do with my weight. But the instructor said "No, I have jumped with hundreds of students who weigh the same or much more than you who don't fall like that. This is just one of those things where some people just fall fast.

The instructor wrote the following in log book:

"Jump #1
Date. 8 25 12
Aircraft. Caravan
Skydive: AFF Level 1
Exit: Great Exit
Maneuvers: Jumpmasters had fall rate problems, so maneuvers could not be completed. Jumpmasters could not stay down. Reserve side pulled out @ 6000'. 150 mph fall rate
Canopy Control: Great
Get to holding area quicker.
Landing: Soft landing on target
Passed to Level 2

So now I am wondering if this explanation makes any sense.
If I have this fall rate issue, what can I, or the instructors do any different on the next jump to make sure the same thing doesn't happen? The school offered to give me the AFF 2 jump at no charge and wrote "FAST" on the card I am to present to whoever I get as the next instructor, but frankly, I am more nervous now than before the first jump.

I want to "get back on the horse" so to speak, but would like to figure some of this out first.

Any thoughts from the forum would be appreciated.


shayelk  (B License)

Aug 30, 2012, 1:35 AM
Post #2 of 45 (3409 views)
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

falling rate isn't just about your weight, but about your drag too (how big a surface do you have, what jumpsuit you're wearing..).
on your next jump, ask the AFFI's to give you a larger jumpsuit- it will have a bigger surface and more drag to slow you down a bit.
Now that they know you fall fast, they might also match you with bigger (or more experienced) AFFI's who can fall faster, or wear some weights to match your fast fall rate.

By the way- as you go along you'll learn how to control your fall rate, so don't worry about it as a long lasting problem :)

I guess your instructors talked to you about it but if you can't get to read your alti why didn't you pull? it sound like for all you knew you could have been at 2000 ft. and just kept on with your dive flow... your AFFI's won't always be there to pull for you. The ground, on the other hand, will.

that being said- what I wrote is only food for thought- ask your instructors about it and don't take anything people are saying online as a fact- I'm a low time jumper myself, so your instructors probably have hundreds of jumps more then I do.


CornishChris  (C 102981)

Aug 30, 2012, 2:05 AM
Post #3 of 45 (3398 views)
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

What DZ was it?

I am surprised that both secondary & primary let go of you - that's bad admin to say the least...


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Aug 30, 2012, 3:18 AM
Post #4 of 45 (3369 views)
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like you need to find some new instructors! I'm surprised they passed you onto level 2 since you didn't really do anything. I know you tried but you didn't pull, do practice pulls or actually check your altitude.


sundevil777  (D License)

Aug 30, 2012, 3:59 AM
Post #5 of 45 (3352 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sounds like you need to find some new instructors! I'm surprised they passed you onto level 2 since you didn't really do anything. I know you tried but you didn't pull, do practice pulls or actually check your altitude.

Perhaps a gratis rejump would be justified.

He also did a great exit, good arch, looked for the instructors.

To Sharksblood - How tall are you?

A really hard arch is good for students, but as you will find out later if you keep jumping, those of us well endowed with copious amounts of gravitational attraction (heavy), usually don't need or want to have a hard arch. That doesn't apply to you yet, as the arch gives you more stability, and faster fall rate, than you would have if you weren't arching so hard. Later, when stability is natural, you won't arch as much as you do as a student. But of course, everything you get from the internet should be considered wrong, just listen to your instructors.


nigel99  (D 1)

Aug 30, 2012, 4:26 AM
Post #6 of 45 (3339 views)
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow that is quite a story and it sounds like you did well.

I'm not sure where you jump?

There are a couple of people who post on this site who are very good AFF instructors. The only one I personally know is popsjumper. I would suggest that you engage with someone like him in private messages and get an opinion on how the AFF instructors performed on this jump.

One thing I'm not entirely clear on - did the reserve side instructor deploy your main or your reserve?


nigel99  (D 1)

Aug 30, 2012, 4:34 AM
Post #7 of 45 (3331 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Sounds like you need to find some new instructors! I'm surprised they passed you onto level 2 since you didn't really do anything. I know you tried but you didn't pull, do practice pulls or actually check your altitude.

Perhaps a gratis rejump would be justified.

He also did a great exit, good arch, looked for the instructors.

To Sharksblood - How tall are you?

A really hard arch is good for students, but as you will find out later if you keep jumping, those of us well endowed with copious amounts of gravitational attraction (heavy), usually don't need or want to have a hard arch. That doesn't apply to you yet, as the arch gives you more stability, and faster fall rate, than you would have if you weren't arching so hard. Later, when stability is natural, you won't arch as much as you do as a student. But of course, everything you get from the internet should be considered wrong, just listen to your instructors.

This is a really strange one. I'm very wary of judging peoples actions over the internet. I do think that someone really trustworthy should have a chat with this guy and possibly not from the DZ. Someone reputable from this site, may be OK, otherwise a suitable safety and training person from whoever his national skydiving body is.

It could be that the dz is being really nice, but offering a free AFF jump, comes across as an admission that the instructors weren't up to the task. It seems like they did a good job on the ground schooling as he sounds like he was quite alert/aware of what the procedures were.

Without creating a witchhunt it would be useful to know which DZ the jump happened at, their reputation good or bad would help.


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Aug 30, 2012, 5:12 AM
Post #8 of 45 (3305 views)
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just a technicality, but 'pulled my reserve' and 'reserve side pulled' are not the same thing. Your reserve was NOT pulled. Your reserve side (left side) instructor pulled your main for you (which makes it clear that fall rate was not really the entire issue, if it was, he would not be there to pull for you Wink)

Did you have video of the jump? I'm not going to armchair quarter back what other instructors or students do. What happened on your jump is for your instructors and you to discuss, not really for an internet forum, as none of us have seen what happened, and it's kind of short changing both you and your instructors for us to try to guess.

If you don't trust the feedback of your instructors, find new instructors or DZ. Trust in what your teachers are teaching you is important.


dirtbox  (D 31759)

Aug 30, 2012, 5:26 AM
Post #9 of 45 (3296 views)
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't worry about the weight thing - the instructors should have been better prepared but it sounds like they have admitted it and are covering the second jump so that is a good thing. As you progress you will learn to control your fall rate and jumps suits you buy will also help. We had one student where I work who falls at the same rate (150+ in a normal student suit, 270lb+ out the door... I wore 22lb of lead and my fastest belly suit to match him, a couple of jumps later we got him a big baggy set of overalls, slowed him down to 130ish so you might want to think bout that. You'll find them at a hardware store or charity store pretty cheap, but of course check with YOUR instructors first.

Good lucks with the skydiving


adagen

Aug 30, 2012, 7:16 AM
Post #10 of 45 (3250 views)
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

If it's left you nervous, why not try a session in a wind tunnel to give you confidence in your stability and learn a little about controlling fall rate? You might be able to arrange something with instructors from the DZ. If not, wind tunnel staff should be able to help.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 30, 2012, 7:28 AM
Post #11 of 45 (3241 views)
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Re: [peregrinerose] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just a technicality, but 'pulled my reserve' and 'reserve side pulled' are not the same thing. Your reserve was NOT pulled. Your reserve side (left side) instructor pulled your main for you (which makes it clear that fall rate was not really the entire issue, if it was, he would not be there to pull for you Wink)

Did you have video of the jump? I'm not going to armchair quarter back what other instructors or students do. What happened on your jump is for your instructors and you to discuss, not really for an internet forum, as none of us have seen what happened, and it's kind of short changing both you and your instructors for us to try to guess.

If you don't trust the feedback of your instructors, find new instructors or DZ. Trust in what your teachers are teaching you is important.

this


5.samadhi

Aug 30, 2012, 8:48 AM
Post #12 of 45 (3199 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

sounds like the instructors failed that level! Sly


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Aug 30, 2012, 12:03 PM
Post #13 of 45 (3106 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
sounds like the instructors failed that level! Sly

I do not want to armchair QB this either but it does not seem right. I fall pretty fast in an arch, sit, etc. and the AFF's I know would never have this problem. Hell, one of our instructors when he is doing tandems has no issue speeding up or slowing down for the vidiot and he is not a big guy at all. Where these instructors really small guys/girls?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 30, 2012, 3:51 PM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In defense of the AFFIs, sort of, Level 1 fall rate is a guessing game and it doesn't always come out as planned.

Granted, the 'guessing' becomes 'educated guessing' over time and we get it right much more often than not. But, we don't know the experience level of these AFFIs.

Sometimes FF skills can come in handy.


5.samadhi

Aug 30, 2012, 8:39 PM
Post #15 of 45 (2942 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In defense of the AFFIs, sort of, Level 1 fall rate is a guessing game and it doesn't always come out as planned.

Granted, the 'guessing' becomes 'educated guessing' over time and we get it right much more often than not. But, we don't know the experience level of these AFFIs.

Sometimes FF skills can come in handy.
If they can't match fall rate of their students why are they AFFI???? Fine to play a guessing game but shouldnt body position be able to give the AFFI enough range to catch a fast-faller.

if you fall slow as an AFFI wouldnt you think you'd learn to knee-fly???


sundevil777  (D License)

Aug 30, 2012, 8:50 PM
Post #16 of 45 (2939 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
if you fall slow as an AFFI wouldnt you think you'd learn to knee-fly???

Given those that have done knee flying (show-offs Laugh) in the middle of RW jumps that I've been on, knee flying certainly doesn't have to be a fast falling position.


5.samadhi

Aug 30, 2012, 10:00 PM
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Re: [sundevil777] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

anything doesnt "have" to be a fast position I've seen people orbit around on their head pretty slowly. It (knee-flying) certainly can be a very fast position (not as fast as sit but getting there depending on the positioning of the legs).


nigel99  (D 1)

Aug 30, 2012, 11:08 PM
Post #18 of 45 (2893 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In defense of the AFFIs, sort of, Level 1 fall rate is a guessing game and it doesn't always come out as planned.

Granted, the 'guessing' becomes 'educated guessing' over time and we get it right much more often than not. But, we don't know the experience level of these AFFIs.

Sometimes FF skills can come in handy.
If they can't match fall rate of their students why are they AFFI???? Fine to play a guessing game but shouldnt body position be able to give the AFFI enough range to catch a fast-faller.

if you fall slow as an AFFI wouldnt you think you'd learn to knee-fly???

You need to bear in mind that the only side of the story we have heard has been from a person with a single AFF jump.


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Aug 31, 2012, 12:27 AM
Post #19 of 45 (2876 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
anything doesnt "have" to be a fast position I've seen people orbit around on their head pretty slowly. It (knee-flying) certainly can be a very fast position (not as fast as sit but getting there depending on the positioning of the legs).

We're getting off topic, but you are talking utter crap here even by your standards. Actually, this whole thread is a bit of a shambles. Have you ever, ever seen an instructor knee fly during an AFF jump? Really?

Sharksblood, ignore pretty much anything said by someone without an AFF rating about your jump and what you might do.

This includes me.

As you will find in skydiving, the sport is full of people who want to give you advice as a way of showing how much they know. The problem being that a lot of the time they 'know' a bunch of nothing, and at the start it can be hard to recognise who to listen to (500 jumps sounds like a hell of a lot but isn't). This goes double for the Internet.


(This post was edited by Joellercoaster on Aug 31, 2012, 3:54 AM)


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Aug 31, 2012, 6:19 AM
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Re: [Sharksblood] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

The Anvil Bros are going to love you.
What's the term for a fledgling Anvil Brother? An "Ingot"?

Let me guess, at 225 you're fairly short and built like a brick wall. Ex-wrestler? (the real kind, not the TV kind) You don't look anywhere near as fast as you are.

The first AFF jump is often a "holy shit I just jumped out of a plane!!" experience. The sensory overload often overwhelms first timers and they completely lose awareness of what's going on.
You didn't. You made some decisions that weren't the best, but you were thinking. You had a good exit and a good arch.

That's probably why they passed you on to L2.

The next time you will probably be given a suit that slows you down more, and the AFFIs will be dressed to go faster.

Take them up on the free L2. Make sure you discuss these concerns with the instructors on the next jump. Make absolutely sure they know about what happened here. Perhaps have them talk to the instructors from the first jump (if you get different ones).


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 31, 2012, 6:36 AM
Post #21 of 45 (2786 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
sounds like the instructors failed that level! Sly

you're kind of a know it all for such a brand new jumper in the sport. 300 jumps is really just an infant in the sport yet. I hope you're learning more here opposed to just sounding off on multiple subjects. We can't give the AFFI's a pass. But I think without the video and the info from the jumpmasters directly, just a cavalier comment bashing them is pretty ignorant.


To the OP - much of the time, those super fast AFF Level falls are a combo of a 'brick' body type that also has his legs on his butt the whole time - they can really move - fall rate and backslide combined.

Though this may or may not be part of your experience, feet on butt is pretty normal, and hopefully your instructors observed enough to be able to do better next time and for you to also do better next time. It takes a lot of character for them to own it enough to put it in the logbook and offer up another jump like they did. I hope they still took all the possible opportunities to teach during and after the jump.

We had a featherweight AFF student here a couple years ago and it took a LOT of work and equipment optimizations, etc, to stick with the guy. He's now an excellent jumper. You will be too. I get anvils all the time also. They are nice as they tend to stay belly to earth

Not everyone is average build, weight and height. Armchair quarterbacking that makes cracks for anything even slightly short of perfection is about as juvenile as it comes and we see it from a lot of posters on an anonymous website.

FF skills do come in handy, but there's a lot less leverage for anyone that's not super skilled in the disciplines. There's very few students that a flexible instructor can't handle while on his belly - but total body flight does teach one to use the airflow even better in this and other orientations (I'm a big fan of all jumpers learning multiple freefall disciplines, even more for potential instructors to have that experience. I'm also a big fan of FF only types that disdain advanced belly skills to stay away from instruction ratings.)


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Aug 31, 2012, 6:42 AM)


DougH  (D License)

Aug 31, 2012, 7:01 AM
Post #22 of 45 (2767 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
anything doesnt "have" to be a fast position I've seen people orbit around on their head pretty slowly. It (knee-flying) certainly can be a very fast position (not as fast as sit but getting there depending on the positioning of the legs).

You should go to that DZ and show them how it is done. They would be for ever in your debt for sharing your huge amounts of internet skydiving experience.


scottd818  (C 41314)

Aug 31, 2012, 7:12 AM
Post #23 of 45 (2755 views)
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Re: [DougH] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

i fall super fast too im 6'2" and 250lbs. ON a couple of my aff jumps one of my reserve side instructor went into a sit to keep up with me. but he never let go and was always there. On lvl 4 when he moved infront of me he was in a sit and that was awesome to see.


5.samadhi

Aug 31, 2012, 8:17 AM
Post #24 of 45 (2740 views)
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Re: [DougH] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
anything doesnt "have" to be a fast position I've seen people orbit around on their head pretty slowly. It (knee-flying) certainly can be a very fast position (not as fast as sit but getting there depending on the positioning of the legs).

You should go to that DZ and show them how it is done. They would be for ever in your debt for sharing your huge amounts of internet skydiving experience.
kind of a retarded comment Doug???...do you disagree with my comment that you can fall fast or slow in a kneeflying position....fast or slow in a headdown...

I've sitfly/backflyed with people on their belly before so its possible to match all sorts of orientations with different speeds.


DougH  (D License)

Aug 31, 2012, 9:44 AM
Post #25 of 45 (2715 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Something went wrong on my AFF 1 Jump??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've sitfly/backflyed with people on their belly before so its possible to match all sorts of orientations with different speeds.

No I don't disagree at all, your the shit dude. Like I said they could really benefit from your vast experience. I am peeing my pants over here because you responded to something that I typed with my own two hands.

We can totally draw an analogy between your few back-fly sitfly jumps and a level 1 AFF jump with a very fast falling student. Those are totally the same exact situation. Winning!

Just so we have a frame of reference, you have made X number of AFF jumps as an instructor, X number of instructor jumps in general?

I just want to give you a hand pricing your AFF consulting fees. Smile There is only one of you to go around and we need to price accordingly!

Sly


(This post was edited by DougH on Aug 31, 2012, 9:45 AM)


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