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AFF & wind tunnel time

 

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btwitche1975  (Student)

Jul 20, 2006, 4:47 PM
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AFF & wind tunnel time Can't Post

I'm sorry to invade upon the instructor forum but I think this is the best place.

What has been your ovservations involving AFF students who have a significant ammout of tunnel time; specifically those who are resonably capable of the six directions of movement in the tunnel before doing AFF.

What techniques/habits learned in the tunnel are bad for AFF? Which ones are good?

Does relaxation ability in the tunnel lead to the same in the sky?

How much of an impact does the large & heavy student rig have on stability & body position?


(This post was edited by btwitche1975 on Jul 20, 2006, 4:48 PM)


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)
Moderator
Jul 20, 2006, 7:12 PM
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Re: [btwitche1975] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What techniques/habits learned in the tunnel are bad for AFF? Which ones are good?

If the students are trained skydive techniques and not tunnel techniques they do very well. The biggest thing I notice is that when the students are in free fall on their release dives they spend a jump or two moving around the sky quite a bit because they don't have the walls of the tunnel as a lateral reference.

Quote:
Does relaxation ability in the tunnel lead to the same in the sky?
Yes. It is harder to fly in the tunnel than in free fall. In the tunnel it feels more like you are creating lift with your body to stay up rather than smoothly cruising through the sky. That makes the tunnel a great training tool.

Quote:
How much of an impact does the large & heavy student rig have on stability & body position?
If the rig fits, and stays put, it has minimal impact. If it doesn't fit and moves around, it causes some symmetry problems. Small jumpers wearing really big rigs can be hampered by the rig being so long they have trouble getting their head back, and the sides of the rig protrude past the sides of their body and can catch air asymmetrically.

I have jumped a lot of wind tunnel trained students, and making the transition from one to the other just takes a jump or two. Now someone needs to invent and exit trainer. It's the hardest thing to train in my opinion.


tdog  (D 28800)

Jul 20, 2006, 9:31 PM
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Re: [btwitche1975] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

I have been coaching AFF students in the tunnel - along with a bunch of 20-200 jump jumpers.

Tonight I had 5 people. One had never jumped/AFF. One just got done with AFF. The rest were between Levels 1 and 2. Everyone flew for 15-20 minutes each.

I am confident that they will do great in the sky - as long as they can remain altitude aware.

We discussed in the debrief that in the sky they have no glass or net - and that altitude awareness needed to be practiced on the ground before the next jump...

I know one of the students would have failed level 2 and 3 and - he admitted - he gave up AFF a few years ago because he hit a brick wall. By the end of his session, he finally clicked and was able to do some pretty good moves. He is ready to be let go and do some turns now - whereas he would have been on his back without the tunnel time (his legs were kicking fast and hard).

One guy - who had 8 jumps, was able to quite nicely do a box drill (up - across - down - across - up) with adding a 360 turn on each move. I was really impressed.

I just can't imagine how these guys would not do good in the sky - and even if they struggle a tad - whatever hand signal they are given they are going to react to in a smooth and controlled way.

Funny thing one of the guys said, "Can I tell my instructors on Level 2 I want to fly mantis and do leg turns - because that is what feels comfortable now, they are not going to make me fly boxman, are they?"Tongue


(This post was edited by tdog on Jul 20, 2006, 9:32 PM)


tdog  (D 28800)

Jul 20, 2006, 9:38 PM
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Re: [slotperfect] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If the students are trained skydive techniques and not tunnel techniques they do very well. The biggest thing I notice is that when the students are in free fall on their release dives they spend a jump or two moving around the sky quite a bit because they don't have the walls of the tunnel as a lateral reference.

I have been a eye-contact Nazi - even for AFF students, teaching to cross reference the formation (even if I am standing outside the chamber) - so they learn to fly relative to a human, not a glass wall...

What techniques have you used/seen?


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Jul 27, 2006, 6:23 AM
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Re: [tdog] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have been a eye-contact Nazi - even for AFF students, teaching to cross reference the formation (even if I am standing outside the chamber) - so they learn to fly relative to a human, not a glass wall...

That doesn't change the fact that the walls still exist and are still in the student's peripheral vision, providing cues as to their position.


Maxim  (C 5104)

Jul 30, 2006, 2:57 AM
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Re: [slotperfect] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Now someone needs to invent and exit trainer. It's the hardest thing to train in my opinion.


I agree, when i was doing my AFF thats the only thing i had trouble with. i would always tumble out the door then get stable with in seconds just was the initial prop blast that got me.


Ron

Jul 31, 2006, 9:01 AM
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Re: [btwitche1975] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What has been your ovservations involving AFF students who have a significant ammout of tunnel time; specifically those who are resonably capable of the six directions of movement in the tunnel before doing AFF.

They did really well in AFF.

In reply to:
What techniques/habits learned in the tunnel are bad for AFF?

You can't run out of time and die in a tunnel.
I drill them to check altitude every min of tunnel time. I make them look at their wrist often even if they do not have an alti there.

In reply to:
Which ones are good?

They know how to be stable, know how to move...The only question is the exit, but with them knowing to proper position to be in...I worry less

In reply to:
Does relaxation ability in the tunnel lead to the same in the sky?

Depends on the person.

In reply to:
How much of an impact does the large & heavy student rig have on stability & body position?

It does, but chances are you will not notice it.


riddler  (D 10234)

Aug 3, 2006, 8:02 AM
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Re: [btwitche1975] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

 
My personal experience: I failed the AFF level 3 (release) jump twice, after passing levels 1 and 2. After the second time I failed level 3, I drove to the wind tunnel in Vegas and spent an hour in there. When I came back, I passed 3,4,5,6,7 all in two days without failing any of them. I think even 30 minutes in the tunnel can significantly improve an AFF student's flying skills.

Now if we just had a canopy tunnel ...

Edit to add this:

Quote:
Does relaxation ability in the tunnel lead to the same in the sky?

Also in my experience, no. Tunnels and jumping are still different enough for me that after spending an hour in the tunnel, I experienced no difference in my arousal level when making the next AFF jump. For me, the only thing that made me relax was getting more skydives. Maybe others have a different experience.


(This post was edited by riddler on Aug 3, 2006, 8:05 AM)


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Aug 5, 2006, 3:06 AM
Post #9 of 29 (3458 views)
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Re: [riddler] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Does relaxation ability in the tunnel lead to the same in the sky?

Also in my experience, no. Tunnels and jumping are still different enough for me that after spending an hour in the tunnel, I experienced no difference in my arousal level when making the next AFF jump. For me, the only thing that made me relax was getting more skydives. Maybe others have a different experience.

I was by no means "relaxed," but I had virtually no fear of spinning out of control after the tunnel time, and that allowed me to progress past L4 to the end with relative ease, after suffering a complete loss of confidence and an 8 month break prior to the Perris tunnel.

(I tried going to the LV tunnel much earlier in 03, but doesn't seem to be reliably open when I'm there to have fun)


Ron

Aug 6, 2006, 9:28 PM
Post #10 of 29 (3431 views)
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Re: [btwitche1975] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What has been your ovservations involving AFF students who have a significant ammout of tunnel time

Just an update...

I did a level 3 with a guy this weekend. He failed....But not really badly. He had about 15 min of tunnel time but the instructor did not use an AFF thought process for his time. In freefall he just didn't respond to hand signals very well.....In the tunnel I tend to just grab and move a student that needed something moved and maybe this guys Tunnel "I" did the same thing? The problem was he didn't resond to hand signals and had a dropped knee, in the tunnel you can let him go and spin hin around and correct it....Not really an approved AFF technique.

Also he didn't check his alti nearly enough.

But he is a trooper and repeated the level this time passing it.

Level 4 with another instructor...He failed that level as well. Not bad, but when I talked to him about it later he told me he was acting like he did in the tunnel, not how he was told to act in freefall.

What he did was not really important, but the fact is he reverted back to his tunnel training on the skydive, and didn't respond to the AFF hand signals...

Just one recent issue.

To fix that, I would recomend getting an AFF rated Tunnel "I".


tdog  (D 28800)

Aug 7, 2006, 6:48 AM
Post #11 of 29 (3413 views)
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Re: [riddler] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Also in my experience, no. Tunnels and jumping are still different enough for me that after spending an hour in the tunnel, I experienced no difference in my arousal level when making the next AFF jump. For me, the only thing that made me relax was getting more skydives. Maybe others have a different experience.

Well - maybe "relax" is a hard word to use - however "experience" and "confidence" are good words to use, and in my limited experience this summer with coaching AFF students in the tunnel then jumping with them in the sky... I am much more relaxed when I know the student has tunnel time,Tongue because I know they will have the experience and confidence to fix problems on their own.


tdog  (D 28800)

Aug 7, 2006, 7:00 AM
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Re: [Ron] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I did a level 3 with a guy this weekend. He failed....

How did he do in the tunnel?

I have seen some of the people I have coached walk away with 15 minutes of tunnel time with a lot of workons with me giving "arch, chin up, look at me, straighten your torso" hand signals - and others whipping 180 and 360 CP turns in a pretty aggressive (mantis) body position while cross referencing me and able to control their own fall rate without handsignals and with large range of motion abilities...

Sounds like you had a real tough student (one of those who struggles a lot if AFF regardless of what happens - then becomes a world champion once it clicks)... I am wondering how they were doing in the tunnel after their 15 minutes?

Would you not agree that this one student you are talking about is more of the rare exception instead of the rule - when dealing with students with tunnel time? Or are you having different results than what I have experienced this summer with a tunnel down the road????


Ron

Aug 7, 2006, 10:40 AM
Post #13 of 29 (3389 views)
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Re: [tdog] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How did he do in the tunnel?

I was not his tunnel "I". He told me he did fine and his body position was pretty good. The issue came down to him not following AFF hand signals and not checking his alti enough.

His level 4 I did not due. He was supposed to do 90 degree turns, but didn't. When I asked him later when he told me he failed, he told me he was expecting the AFF "I" to rotate just like his tunnel "I" did and he would just stay pointed at him.

So he expected his AFF "I" to use a tunnel teaching trick.

Three things that the tunnel differed from AFF:

1. Hand signals
2. Altitude Awareness.
3. Instructor moving to get the student to turn vs the "I" staying in place.

All three could be worked around or trained in the tunnel to eliminate the issues, but are examples of things that could happen.

In reply to:
Or are you having different results than what I have experienced this summer with a tunnel down the road????

Depends on who does their tunnel. When I do tunnel with an AFF student, I treat it like an AFF jump mostly. So they use the same hand signals, alti checks...ect. My students didn't have a problem.


AMax

Aug 14, 2006, 4:32 PM
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Re: [Ron] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe this is AFF level 1 (after getting 2h of tunnel time)
Wink


http://www.dropzone.com/...nt;postatt_id=37609;


Ron

Aug 14, 2006, 5:48 PM
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Re: [AMax] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I believe this is AFF level 1 (after getting 2h of tunnel time)

Please, I had an AFF1 that flew in the mantis.Tongue


flyangel2

Aug 14, 2006, 8:24 PM
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Re: [AMax] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I believe this is AFF level 1 (after getting 2h of tunnel time)
Wink


http://www.dropzone.com/...nt;postatt_id=37609;


Yup, that be Jen, Mailin. She breezed right through her AFF training.


tdog  (D 28800)

Aug 14, 2006, 8:30 PM
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Re: [Ron] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I believe this is AFF level 1 (after getting 2h of tunnel time)

Please, I had an AFF1 that flew in the mantis.Tongue


Ya... I had a student this weekend. AFF Level 1...

[ME] "So, have you had any prior skydiving experience?"

[STUDENT] "Two tandems."

[ME] "Ok, so no tunnel time..."

[STUDENT] "Oh, well, I did one of those three day Airspeed tunnel camps with Eliana as my coach."

[ME], "Ok then... Would you mind flying mantis on this level 1, I think it would make a nice video."

He actually did fly manits... Feet were a little too far in, but I am sure he was just missing the visual clues to know he was backsliding (we held on, it was his first time touching a rig and pulling for himself, and the tunnel camp was a few months back, so we were better safe than sorry and did a traditional level 1...)


(This post was edited by tdog on Aug 14, 2006, 8:32 PM)


mailin  (A 46883)

Aug 15, 2006, 5:06 AM
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Re: [flyangel2] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

Laugh

Yep, 3 jumps total for AFF. Tunnel time rocks Wink



Jen


AMax

Aug 15, 2006, 8:19 AM
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Re: [mailin] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

That is pretty cool! Wink


flyangel2

Aug 15, 2006, 12:25 PM
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Re: [AMax] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That is pretty cool! Wink

Jen was rocking when she was a student.

You can read the whole story here.


BigDreams32  (Student)

Aug 21, 2012, 7:12 PM
Post #21 of 29 (2575 views)
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Re: [riddler] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

I am currently doing my AFF, and I've done leve 1 & 2 so far but i'm having trouble with my legs and somewhat my body position. My instructor recommended sum tunnel time to gain the confidence as well as work on my body position. He said most students that jump into the tunnel for 10-15 min usually fly right through AFF after with no further problems. I'm thinking of getting sum tunnel time before doing any more jumps risking i might fail and the extra expense. seams like the money for tunnel time can be worth saving the money for failed jumps. what does everybody think? Do jumpers find the rest of AFF easier after sum time in the tunnel?


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Aug 21, 2012, 8:16 PM
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Re: [BigDreams32] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

it can help with some things like body position.

BUT IT CANNOT PREPARE YOU FOR EVERYTHING ELSE!!!!
such as

1. altitude awareness
2. canopy control
3. gear awareness
4. comfort falling through the sky


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 21, 2012, 8:44 PM
Post #23 of 29 (2558 views)
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Re: [mailin] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Laugh

Yep, 3 jumps total for AFF. Tunnel time rocks Wink



Jen

Is that approved?

What about altitude awareness, tracking and canopy skills, for example? Seems like a helluva shortcut to me.


nigel99  (D 1)

Aug 30, 2012, 4:48 AM
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Re: [DocPop] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Laugh

Yep, 3 jumps total for AFF. Tunnel time rocks Wink



Jen

Is that approved?

What about altitude awareness, tracking and canopy skills, for example? Seems like a helluva shortcut to me.

Meh, if you've got boobies you don't need canopy skills.Laugh


Lindenwood  (Student)

Aug 30, 2012, 5:58 AM
Post #25 of 29 (2409 views)
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Re: [DocPop] AFF & wind tunnel time [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Laugh

Yep, 3 jumps total for AFF. Tunnel time rocks Wink



Jen

Is that approved?

What about altitude awareness, tracking and canopy skills, for example? Seems like a helluva shortcut to me.

Heh I waa thinking the same thing, but with a high exit and flexible instructors, one probably could indeed display all the basic skills and safety in all three jumps. My instructors told me that progression is about displaying you can be a safe skydiver.

First jump: Docked exit, touches, release, a turn or two and forward motion to dock and pull.
Second jump: Solo poised exit with some stability checks (flips) and tracking .
Third jump: Poised or diving exit, some general manuevers, and tracking.

Provided landings are decent, altitude awareness is maintained, and no major mistakes are made with any manuevers, I coukd see an instructor signing off that "this jumper is as safe as any other AFF student I would release."


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