Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
It seems I spin to the left...

 


Lazarus_762  (A 67183)

Aug 27, 2012, 5:58 AM
Post #1 of 21 (1435 views)
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It seems I spin to the left... Can't Post

stumbled and fumbled my way thru AFF3... I thought I was nice and neutral, stable and straight - maybe not. I appear to spin to the left a bit, and it doesn't help when you correct a left spin by turning left! Oops...It would help a bunch if I would stop enjoying the scenery and actually pick a heading out towards the horizon. I spend too much time looking at the ground..."Oh cool, look at the cows! And that's a nice house over there, he needs to put a pistol range in the south 40, that would be neat..."

Learned a lot this weekend, including how nice it is landing in a nice grassy pasture - so soft and cushiony, like Charmin! LOL!

Determination and desire will only take me so far, eventually, I'm gonna need to pull my head outta my ass...BlushBlush


sparkie  (D License)

Aug 27, 2012, 6:49 AM
Post #2 of 21 (1396 views)
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Re: [Lazarus_762] It seems I spin to the left... [In reply to] Can't Post

you probably just need to relax your body in ff.

Maybe the alti simulator from another thread will help. Tongue


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Aug 27, 2012, 7:52 AM
Post #3 of 21 (1361 views)
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Re: [Lazarus_762] It seems I spin to the left... [In reply to] Can't Post

You will never be able to keep a heading looking at the ground. You MUST look at the horizon. The 'oooh shiny' is not part of the skydiving dive flow, the priority is to pull, pull at the correct altitude, pull while stable, land safely in a clear open area with a level canopy. Enjoying the view is not a part of that. Focus on saving your life for now, grasshopper, and I bet the turning stops all by itself once you focus appropriately Smile


adamhildreth  (C 110471)

Aug 27, 2012, 11:50 AM
Post #4 of 21 (1287 views)
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Re: [peregrinerose] It seems I spin to the left... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmm when you say you can't keep a heading looking at the ground - I'm not sure of any other way!!! i don't look directly down but you have enough peripheral vision to take a point on the ground (in the distance) to take a heading!

Taking a heading on a moving cloud would be interesting :-).


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Aug 27, 2012, 12:21 PM
Post #5 of 21 (1276 views)
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Re: [Lazarus_762] It seems I spin to the left... [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Chin UP.
2. Look at horizon.
3. Smile, Breathe, Relax.

If you will look at your dive flow for that jump you will not find "look down and take in the view". Stop being such a "smart guy" and simply follow the damned script. Once you learn how to save your own life reliably, then you can take in the view. First things first!


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 27, 2012, 12:44 PM
Post #6 of 21 (1267 views)
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Re: [peregrinerose] It seems I spin to the left... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the priority is to pull, pull at the correct altitude, pull while stable,

here's a tangent

an instructor I respect asked me this question...

Why do we try to teach new students 3 things, that require sorting and prioritizing, when all three can be accomplished by just saying "pull at the correct altitude"?

I agree with him. We're taking something very simple and needlessly making it complicated for someone that just doesn't need that complexity.

this gives us the other two without trying:
1 - if we're below the correct altitude or just don't know, then pull anyway
2 - if we're above the correct altitude, then stable or not, we have time to work on it

we only really have the one priority


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Aug 27, 2012, 1:09 PM
Post #7 of 21 (1252 views)
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Re: [adamhildreth] It seems I spin to the left... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hmm when you say you can't keep a heading looking at the ground - I'm not sure of any other way!!! i don't look directly down but you have enough peripheral vision to take a point on the ground (in the distance) to take a heading!

Taking a heading on a moving cloud would be interesting :-).

You might want to think through the cloud thing a little bit better as to why a cloud is not going to hurt keeping a heading.

You need to look at the horizon... which is where ground/sky meet. Looking at ground only will cause lots of orbiting. My husband and I have tons of skydives as 50 jump wonders that we were orbiting each other, both blaming the other for going in circles Angelic That is, until an instructor worked with us on how to know we are holding a heading and not orbiting.


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Aug 27, 2012, 1:12 PM
Post #8 of 21 (1250 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] It seems I spin to the left... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
the priority is to pull, pull at the correct altitude, pull while stable,

here's a tangent

an instructor I respect asked me this question...

Why do we try to teach new students 3 things, that require sorting and prioritizing, when all three can be accomplished by just saying "pull at the correct altitude"?

I agree with him. We're taking something very simple and needlessly making it complicated for someone that just doesn't need that complexity.

this gives us the other two without trying:
1 - if we're below the correct altitude or just don't know, then pull anyway
2 - if we're above the correct altitude, then stable or not, we have time to work on it

we only really have the one priority

Pull at the correct altitude is great... until the student blows through said altitude, then what are they supposed to do? That is why the heirarchy of decision making, I think, to cover all possibilities in a fairly simple manner. Skydiving is all about decision making. If a student can't handle that kind of rather simplistic heirarchy, should they really be skydiving?


pchapman  (D 1014)

Aug 27, 2012, 1:17 PM
Post #9 of 21 (1245 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] It seems I spin to the left... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
we only really have the one priority

+1
That old saying is common but confusing as hell, and doesn't provide any sort of good decision making tree. Interpreting it is more like some ancient Greek riddle where one has to consider all the different possibilities until realizing what it means.

If the priority to pull is more important than doing so at the correct altitude, we'd pull right out the door.

(Even just "pull at the correct altitude" needs to be restated a little differently for newbies, so that you don't have to start adding extra caveats like the mind teaser "don't pull low unless you are".)


adamhildreth  (C 110471)

Aug 27, 2012, 1:39 PM
Post #10 of 21 (1236 views)
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Re: [peregrinerose] It seems I spin to the left... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Hmm when you say you can't keep a heading looking at the ground - I'm not sure of any other way!!! i don't look directly down but you have enough peripheral vision to take a point on the ground (in the distance) to take a heading!

Taking a heading on a moving cloud would be interesting :-).

You might want to think through the cloud thing a little bit better as to why a cloud is not going to hurt keeping a heading.

You need to look at the horizon... which is where ground/sky meet. Looking at ground only will cause lots of orbiting. My husband and I have tons of skydives as 50 jump wonders that we were orbiting each other, both blaming the other for going in circles Angelic That is, until an instructor worked with us on how to know we are holding a heading and not orbiting.

Slighly odd reply - i dont 'orbit' or have a turn (according to other 1000+ jumpers), maybe they're wrong but when i keep a heading (without doing RW) i have to pick a place on the ground not the Sky, as close the horizon as possible. Am i wrong?


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 27, 2012, 1:56 PM
Post #11 of 21 (1229 views)
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Re: [peregrinerose] It seems I spin to the left... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Pull at the correct altitude is great... until the student blows through said altitude, then what are they supposed to do?

my apologies, I took this as a strawman and obtuse, I'm sure you might have been serious

deleted sarcastic comment - look below for lighthearted clarification


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Aug 27, 2012, 2:57 PM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 27, 2012, 1:59 PM
Post #12 of 21 (1226 views)
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Re: [pchapman] It seems I spin to the left... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
we only really have the one priority

+1
That old saying is common but confusing as hell, and doesn't provide any sort of good decision making tree. Interpreting it is more like some ancient Greek riddle where one has to consider all the different possibilities until realizing what it means.

If the priority to pull is more important than doing so at the correct altitude, we'd pull right out the door.

(Even just "pull at the correct altitude" needs to be restated a little differently for newbies, so that you don't have to start adding extra caveats like the mind teaser "don't pull low unless you are".)

this is the better discussion - but I don't think it's really that nuanced

If we need a 'decision tree' that implies we take different actions depending on what's going on......

Under the 3 priorities (pull at altitude vs pull below altitude being mutually exclusive and, frankly, obtuse) we have 4 possible scenarios.

1 - at altitude (?? +/-200 feet ???) and stable
2 - at altitude and unstable
3 - below altitude and stable
4 - below altitude and unstable

(above the cut off deck is "happy wonder freefall portion" that's where we can pull if other stuff is going really bad, but that's freefall training, not pull time training. at or below the cut off altitude is "good clean fun and let's get that darn handle pulled portion")

For the perfect scenario #1, I have the ideal pull training - it includes "while arching the whole time - we reach for the darn thing, we feel for the darn thing, we grab the darn thing, and we pull the darn thing")

what I want to know, is with this fantastic 'decision tree', what do we want this student to do different for scenarios 2, 3 and 4?


I want them to do the same thing for each. So what's the point of the tree? I like decision trees, but only if they actually do something.

WE should move this part of the thread to Instructor forum, I think. (sorry to the original poster - you'll do fine, listen to your instructors, not some internet forum)


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Aug 27, 2012, 2:55 PM)


Lazarus_762  (A 67183)

Aug 27, 2012, 2:45 PM
Post #13 of 21 (1204 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] It seems I spin to the left... [In reply to] Can't Post

take me at my word here... the "smart guy" problem is gone. I am well aquainted with the taste of humble pie...


hillson  (D 33134)

Aug 27, 2012, 3:17 PM
Post #14 of 21 (1180 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] It seems I spin to the left... [In reply to] Can't Post

As a new guy here is my uninformed opinion on the three priorities...

There is much in skydiving that uses the 3x system (outside of EPs) that - if you forget pretty much everything - can help save your bacon.

Is my rig squared away? Check of 3s

At the most basic level what do I need to know on deployment? Is it there, is it square, is it steerable?

This is going to be a terrible landing the reasons for which can be debated elsewhere...wing level, land in an open area, flare to at least half brakes.

Particularly with pulling...yes, obviously you need to pull. Forget your altitude? Still need to pull. Unstable? Still need to pull.

At the end of the day, to me, the extra stuff after pull or is it there simply reinforce the primary priority. Likewise they are all distinct phases of the jump so it is easy to remember what you need and to ignore the rest. In free fall? Pull. Deployment? Is it there? Landing? Is my wing level?

None of this may save your ass for a variety of reasons but breaking it down into easy steps per phase of jump means that at a minimum there is a better chance of not being a crater.

There are 10000 variations, of course, but for absolute minimums...not too bad


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Aug 28, 2012, 8:20 AM
Post #15 of 21 (1068 views)
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Re: [Lazarus_762] It seems I spin to the left... [In reply to] Can't Post

I will bet you have injured a leg, hip or ankle in your past. While you may think you have achieved a full recovery you still have diminished kinesthetic in that joint or member. You think you body is symmetrical while it isn't. This has been the root cause of all of the spinning jumpers I have caught and straightened out over the years. I have found film study and awareness are the best solutions. A good instructor is also beneficial.


Lazarus_762  (A 67183)

Aug 28, 2012, 9:37 AM
Post #16 of 21 (1054 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] It seems I spin to the left... [In reply to] Can't Post

actually, I have a bum left knee, missing some cartilage in there. Something to think about. thanks...

edit...now that I think about it, bum knee, stiff hip on that same side, spinal mis-alignment, dislocated shoulder, screwed-up neck...I'm a freakin walking laundry list of partially functional body parts. Maybe all of the old injuries will balance each other out.


(This post was edited by Lazarus_762 on Aug 28, 2012, 10:00 AM)


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Aug 28, 2012, 9:47 AM
Post #17 of 21 (1050 views)
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Re: [adamhildreth] It seems I spin to the left... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Hmm when you say you can't keep a heading looking at the ground - I'm not sure of any other way!!! i don't look directly down but you have enough peripheral vision to take a point on the ground (in the distance) to take a heading!

Taking a heading on a moving cloud would be interesting :-).

You might want to think through the cloud thing a little bit better as to why a cloud is not going to hurt keeping a heading.

You need to look at the horizon... which is where ground/sky meet. Looking at ground only will cause lots of orbiting. My husband and I have tons of skydives as 50 jump wonders that we were orbiting each other, both blaming the other for going in circles Angelic That is, until an instructor worked with us on how to know we are holding a heading and not orbiting.

Slighly odd reply - i dont 'orbit' or have a turn (according to other 1000+ jumpers), maybe they're wrong but when i keep a heading (without doing RW) i have to pick a place on the ground not the Sky, as close the horizon as possible. Am i wrong?

It is easy to keep a heading/not orbit with someone with that many jumps. Put 2 50 jump wonders in the sky with no rock solid frame of reference in front of them, and let the fun ensue. My husband and I both did fine with a solid experienced jumper, but when we had to depend on ourselves to not orbit... well, let's just say we were wildly excited with that first dock Smile


erdnarob  (D 364)

Aug 28, 2012, 2:37 PM
Post #18 of 21 (1003 views)
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Re: [Lazarus_762] It seems I spin to the left... [In reply to] Can't Post

 Your spin is probably due to an asymetrical position of arms and/or legs without you noticing it.
In order to better know where are your arms and legs in freefall, tense or flex your toes. That will make you know exactely where your legs-feet are in 3 D and will allow you to make the correction. For the arms, do the same with fingers and think about rising your hands at ear level.
Tell us if that works.Smile


Lazarus_762  (A 67183)

Aug 28, 2012, 7:23 PM
Post #19 of 21 (969 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] It seems I spin to the left... [In reply to] Can't Post

sounds like solid advice... thanks!


DanG  (D 22351)

Aug 29, 2012, 5:05 AM
Post #20 of 21 (946 views)
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Re: [Lazarus_762] It seems I spin to the left... [In reply to] Can't Post

Get a video of your next dive. Ask the videographer to get shots of you from above and from the side. You probably have some asymmetry that you can't even feel. If you just can't fix it, the wind tunnel is perfect for this. I once had a student in the tunnel who's right leg was stronger than her left. When I got her legs even, she automatically kept putting them back uneven becuase they felt even to her. She simply couldn't believe that they were uneven. It didn't really click until she saw video of herself flying with what she thought were even legs, and they were nowhere near each other.


Lazarus_762  (A 67183)

Aug 29, 2012, 7:38 AM
Post #21 of 21 (928 views)
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Re: [DanG] It seems I spin to the left... [In reply to] Can't Post

we actually talked about that. good idea, we will probably do that...



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