Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Wing Suit Flying:
Apache vs Rebel

 


hjumper33  (Student)

Aug 26, 2012, 11:25 PM
Post #1 of 25 (3259 views)
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Apache vs Rebel Can't Post

How many people have flown both of these things. Obviously the Rebel is supposed to be floatier, but what about overall handling and glide. Be interested to hear peoples impressions.


mr_bird  (C License)

Aug 27, 2012, 4:56 AM
Post #2 of 25 (3169 views)
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Re: [hjumper33] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't jump in it, but I know guy who have and i asked the same question some time ago. His answer:
Rebel = more rapid start in base, MUCH better controllability.
Apache = "seems like have better GR".


(This post was edited by mr_bird on Aug 27, 2012, 4:57 AM)


flipwithit  (D 31574)

Aug 27, 2012, 7:17 PM
Post #3 of 25 (3033 views)
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Re: [hjumper33] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

i personally thought that the rebel required a little more from the pilot, had way better slow speed capabilities, characteristics, lift, and a little slower than the x. id say the x to the rebel is the v4 to the venom (not saying an apache x is equal to a v4.) if i want to turn and burn ill grab the x, for xrw ill grab the rebel. i say tony did a good job with the rebel while still offering the x.


decwa

Aug 30, 2012, 8:32 PM
Post #4 of 25 (2843 views)
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Re: [flipwithit] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

I fly the rebel at 114 MPH on best glide. My best steep glide is 128 MPH in the rebel, there is more in there though. All numbers are wind corrected.


How fast do you fly the X1 or X2?


flipwithit  (D 31574)

Aug 31, 2012, 6:32 AM
Post #5 of 25 (2777 views)
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Re: [decwa] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I fly the rebel at 114 MPH on best glide. My best steep glide is 128 MPH in the rebel, there is more in there though. All numbers are wind corrected.


How fast do you fly the X1 or X2?

i should have clarified...x = apache x. i dont have a flysight but i do have a contour gps. 140 isnt hard to achieve. last balloon jump i was getting 120 maxing out my glide with a 10mph head wind. not sure how strong the winds were closer to the ground but at 4000 the balloon was movin away from the launch point (where i was flying to) at 12mph.


LukeH  (D License)

Aug 31, 2012, 8:24 AM
Post #6 of 25 (2748 views)
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Re: [flipwithit] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
140 isnt hard to achieve. last balloon jump i was getting 120 maxing out my glide with a 10mph head wind. not sure how strong the winds were closer to the ground but at 4000 the balloon was movin away from the launch point (where i was flying to) at 12mph.

The average speed for Apache and Apache X (i don't know if there's a difference between the two?) recorded in the Distance Challenge (so when flown for good GR) on PPC is 178kph (111mph).

Most of these runs are done downwind so wind corrected forward speed of the suit is more likely to be lower than that.

What was your glide when you were getting 120MPH?


(This post was edited by LukeH on Aug 31, 2012, 8:49 AM)


flipwithit  (D 31574)

Aug 31, 2012, 10:19 AM
Post #7 of 25 (2711 views)
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Re: [LukeH] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

i dont have a fly sight so i couldnt give you glide info. i am 6ft and 190lbs tho. and everything ive heard about the apache is the x is different.


LukeH  (D License)

Sep 1, 2012, 2:06 AM
Post #8 of 25 (2639 views)
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Re: [flipwithit] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

If you don't have a Fly-Sight where are you seeing the speeds? They just don't seem right for any suit that is being flown to maximize glide, especially as you are of average height and weight.

Previous claims that the suit was "fast" and flies at 120mph turned out to be peak value after a dive trading altitude and glide for temporary speed increase. This makes 140mph tough to believe.


flipwithit  (D 31574)

Sep 1, 2012, 9:34 AM
Post #9 of 25 (2583 views)
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Re: [LukeH] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

contour gps. if people were getting only 120 after a dive then you really arent going to belive my gps lost signal at over 180mph forward speed and it was still going up.
Attachments: yuuup.jpg (79.7 KB)


LukeH  (D License)

Sep 1, 2012, 9:59 AM
Post #10 of 25 (2573 views)
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Re: [flipwithit] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

The data it's giving you is rubbish.

Perhaps that GPS isn't well suited for skydiving.


flipwithit  (D 31574)

Sep 1, 2012, 10:26 AM
Post #11 of 25 (2563 views)
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Re: [LukeH] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

i figured that would be your response. let me know if you ever show up in lodi.


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 1, 2012, 12:40 PM
Post #12 of 25 (2537 views)
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Re: [flipwithit] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i figured that would be your response. let me know if you ever show up in lodi.

It would be my response too. That speed is just not credible.


flipwithit  (D 31574)

Sep 1, 2012, 12:56 PM
Post #13 of 25 (2528 views)
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Re: [kallend] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

its after going head down for a few thousand feet and leveling out smoothly. im not saying it was maintained or a max glide speed.
anyway, im not going to try and convince people on the internet that this is possible. come see for yourself.
ill be in lodi a lot this winter.
by the way, i have a buddy with a 167mph reading from a fly sight in a v3


nickfrey

Sep 1, 2012, 1:24 PM
Post #14 of 25 (2521 views)
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Re: [flipwithit] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

the Contour GPS is horribly inaccurate for sky sports, especially out of the otter since you are sitting under the wings spars during the climb and it lacks DGPS. Add in the fact that it's only 1hz, only gives you 3D speed and shows you in level flight. The Data from it for anything other then a semi-accurate track history is completely useless.

Get a real GPS with at least 5hz plotting, Agps and Dgps. and use either Paralog or the flysight program to look at the track. The free version of Paralog can load one track at a time, you just cant save it.

If you see me in lodi (red/blue/black Ghost 3) I'll loan you my GPS for a flight.

Assuming that clip is the whole flight and it shows your at 3900' at 1:47 exiting from 13000 your average fall rate was about 58MPH, so either the gps is dead wrong or you were diving the crap out of that suit.


flipwithit  (D 31574)

Sep 1, 2012, 2:21 PM
Post #15 of 25 (2507 views)
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Re: [nickfrey] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

"so either the gps is dead wrong or you were diving the crap out of that suit. "
your investigating skills are good but did you not catch the whole "head down" part? i was going for that tandem you can see in the picture. i watched the drogue all the way til the canopy popped and then went head down and stooped past em.
you can discredit me all you want, i dont care. but now why dont you try to discredit the 167mph in a v3 (who wasnt ever head down prior...)because that was from a fly sight? the record forward speed in a wingsuit is already almost 300km/h...id bet there are even faster people out there as well.


(This post was edited by flipwithit on Sep 1, 2012, 2:35 PM)


nickfrey

Sep 1, 2012, 3:57 PM
Post #16 of 25 (2488 views)
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Re: [flipwithit] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

Never tried to discredit the V3 speed, many known pilots have reached about the same speed in that suit. I was not discrediting you or calling you a liar, chill out... I was discrediting your method of measurement/equipment.

Started typing that reply before your last post, got sidetracked and posted it after you said you were head down. My bad... but as I stated before, contours only give 3d speed, not vertical (fall), not horizontal(ground). Entirely possible to reach a 3d speed of 140, in fact you could do it without a wingsuit and I've reached 3d speeds in excess of 150 in a ghost, with an accurate GPS, fall Rate was 93mph and ground speed 120. You are not wrong, but your contour is.

PS, Hi Cliff... Lets race next time, you should win...


(This post was edited by nickfrey on Sep 1, 2012, 3:58 PM)


flipwithit  (D 31574)

Sep 1, 2012, 7:31 PM
Post #17 of 25 (2453 views)
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Re: [nickfrey] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

sorry for hijacking the living fuck out of your thread hjumper. ive jumped both and my opinion is above.

nick, where have you come up with that contour does 3d speed only? if that were the case id expect to see a lot higher speeds than ~70mph at pull time. i havnt been able to find anything about that. it did get an update a while ago and does 4hz now...well at least its an option when setting up the camera. (not talking about the contour + )
im always down for a race...dont really have a suit that would make things equal for a ghost but whatevers clever...you get your v3 yet?


(This post was edited by flipwithit on Sep 1, 2012, 7:48 PM)


nickfrey

Sep 1, 2012, 11:14 PM
Post #18 of 25 (2420 views)
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Re: [flipwithit] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

Continued thread jack, sorry I haven't flown either one.

What I should have said about the contour is that storyteller reports 3D in the playback, at least according to the rep I asked a while back. Using the data you could export it as GPX and import it to flysight or paralog to analyze it. You could also export CSV and look at it to see just how accurate the data is. ie. how much erroneous data there is.

If you want to export the data from your flight I would actually be interested in seeing it.

To export the GPS data from a movie, start with the movie already imported in to Storyteller. From the Library view of Storyteller, select the movie whose and then choose File -> Export -> Export GPS data. You will then have the option to choose a location for saving the file. You will also be able to select between .GPX, .CSV, and .TXT formats.

Send me gpx and csv and we will see whats up...

V4 on the way 10 days or so. Like i said you should win, but 3 miles out, first one to the highway and above 4000 wins...

Edit to add, I looked at a few gps tracks and my 3d speed at deployment ranges from 65-95 with most being about 80.


(This post was edited by nickfrey on Sep 1, 2012, 11:16 PM)


LukeH  (D License)

Sep 2, 2012, 4:06 AM
Post #19 of 25 (2390 views)
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Re: [flipwithit] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
its after going head down for a few thousand feet and leveling out smoothly.
Makes more sense now, you left that bit out.

In reply to:
Im not saying it was maintained or a max glide speed.
anyway, im not going to try and convince people on the internet that this is possible.
You don't have to convince anyone. Sure we all know it's possible, the record horizontal speed (average over 1,000 vertical meters) is 175mph, and that wasn't boosted by a dive before hand.
You did say you were getting 120MPH into a 12MPH headwind when maxing out your glide (and 140MPH is easy), this is also highly unlikely.


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Sep 2, 2012, 8:04 AM
Post #20 of 25 (2365 views)
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Re: [hjumper33] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How many people have flown both of these things. Obviously the Rebel is supposed to be floatier, but what about overall handling and glide. Be interested to hear peoples impressions.

I was under the impression that the rebel is the amalgamation of what would have been the X3 and appache 2, convertible for use with either a base rig worn harness internal or skydive rig worn harness external?


5.samadhi

Sep 2, 2012, 9:04 AM
Post #21 of 25 (2353 views)
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Re: [LukeH] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
its after going head down for a few thousand feet and leveling out smoothly.
Makes more sense now, you left that bit out.

In reply to:
Im not saying it was maintained or a max glide speed.
anyway, im not going to try and convince people on the internet that this is possible.
You don't have to convince anyone. Sure we all know it's possible, the record horizontal speed (average over 1,000 vertical meters) is 175mph, and that wasn't boosted by a dive before hand.
You did say you were getting 120MPH into a 12MPH headwind when maxing out your glide (and 140MPH is easy), this is also highly unlikely.
on patrol again I see! LaughSlyCrazy


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 2, 2012, 9:34 AM
Post #22 of 25 (2344 views)
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Re: [flipwithit] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"so either the gps is dead wrong or you were diving the crap out of that suit. "
your investigating skills are good but did you not catch the whole "head down" part? i was going for that tandem you can see in the picture. i watched the drogue all the way til the canopy popped and then went head down and stooped past em.
you can discredit me all you want, i dont care. but now why dont you try to discredit the 167mph in a v3 (who wasnt ever head down prior...)because that was from a fly sighT the record forward speed in a wingsuit is already almost 300km/h...id bet there are even faster people out there as well.

Head down speed is meaningless in talking about suit performance. Using that criterion I easily beat your wing suit in my RW suit.

What we really need to know is sustained steady state horizontal speed after correction for wind speed.


(This post was edited by kallend on Sep 2, 2012, 9:35 AM)


medusa  (D 27526)

Sep 15, 2012, 8:03 PM
Post #23 of 25 (1991 views)
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Re: [nickfrey] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

I know Jeb corliss is getting sustain 140 mph and I do know that Cliff is a super talented WS pilot I know he is completely capable to achieve those speeds.

Remember, the fact that you can't do something, dosent necessarily means is impossible.


flipwithit  (D 31574)

Sep 15, 2012, 8:13 PM
Post #24 of 25 (1989 views)
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Re: [kallend] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
"so either the gps is dead wrong or you were diving the crap out of that suit. "
your investigating skills are good but did you not catch the whole "head down" part? i was going for that tandem you can see in the picture. i watched the drogue all the way til the canopy popped and then went head down and stooped past em.
you can discredit me all you want, i dont care. but now why dont you try to discredit the 167mph in a v3 (who wasnt ever head down prior...)because that was from a fly sighT the record forward speed in a wingsuit is already almost 300km/h...id bet there are even faster people out there as well.

Head down speed is meaningless in talking about suit performance. Using that criterion I easily beat your wing suit in my RW suit.

What we really need to know is sustained steady state horizontal speed after correction for wind speed.

you either missed the point or decided to spin the information to your favor. i never said my head down speed was 180+, thats silly to boast vertical speed and the contour doesnt read vertical speed anyway i went head down in order to achieve that speed horizontally...

thanks for word medusa...medusa is without a doubt a better pilot than me and knows that im not bullshitting. i hate to keep this internet fiasco going so just come on out to lodi and we'll go do some jumps :)


LukeH  (D License)

Sep 17, 2012, 10:55 AM
Post #25 of 25 (1804 views)
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Re: [medusa] Apache vs Rebel [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I know Jeb corliss is getting sustain 140 mph

I doubt it. (Predictable I know.)

Jeb's good at many things, reading GPS data is not one of them.



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