Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Wing Suit Flying:
Experience needed to be a rodeo rider

 


kallend  (D 23151)

Aug 26, 2012, 7:00 AM
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Experience needed to be a rodeo rider Can't Post

 
Given the current discussion in the "Incidents" forum about a rodeo jump, what is the general opinion about how to evaluate if someone is qualified to be a rodeo rider.

# of jumps?
License level?
Type of jumping done previously?
Gender?
Cuteness?
Other?


dragon2  (D 101989)

Aug 26, 2012, 7:19 AM
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Re: [kallend] Experience needed to be a rodeo rider [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't forget "weight".

Over here it seems that cute lightweight-ish girls with at least 50-100 jumps and reasonably current stand the best change of hitching a ride Wink


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Aug 26, 2012, 7:47 AM
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Page 10

Apparently some feel that is not enough. Having seen several sub-50 jump (even a couple A license grads) on rodeos, it seems 75 is a fair bar. Less than we expect a Coach to manage, more than a B license grad. Perhaps we need to consider raising the number; it's not been an issue in the past.


5.samadhi

Aug 26, 2012, 8:21 AM
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Re: [DSE] Experience needed to be a rodeo rider [In reply to] Can't Post

if they are a heads up altitude aware jumper who can get stable after being unstable then they are good to go. I would say as soon as they have their A license for some but never for others.

Just leave it up to local DZOs/S&TAs to work out amongst their local jumpers.

Why the incessant need to make regulations that pervade the macro-community?


(This post was edited by 5.samadhi on Aug 26, 2012, 8:22 AM)


rnicks  (A License)

Aug 26, 2012, 9:50 AM
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Re: [kallend] Experience needed to be a rodeo rider [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know what the ideal number should be, but 75 jumps seems like more than enough. I've done a few rodeos and quite frankly, they were mostly boring with nothing to do do. I don't see where the 'advanced jump' comes into play. You sit there with nothing but time to look at your altimeter. 4-way is much more distracting and poses a greater threat to the new jumper.


The111  (D 29246)

Aug 26, 2012, 11:03 AM
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Re: [rnicks] Experience needed to be a rodeo rider [In reply to] Can't Post

The biggest potential issue that I don't see mentioned here is that the pilot can significantly alter the spot of the passenger, essentially forcing her to land off. I've seen it happen multiple times. If the DZ does not have many good outs, now you have someone with 75 jumps being forced to land in a backyard. Or worse, in the Elsinore situation, if she had been over foothills (terrain higher than 750ft), this would have been a fatality.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Aug 26, 2012, 12:14 PM
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Re: [kallend] Experience needed to be a rodeo rider [In reply to] Can't Post

The only "experience" I have ever seen need to rodeo a wingsuit has been a nice set of tits Wink

Half joking here. Key word is half.


kallend  (D 23151)

Aug 26, 2012, 12:58 PM
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Re: [5.samadhi] Experience needed to be a rodeo rider [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
if they are a heads up altitude aware jumper who can get stable after being unstable then they are good to go. I would say as soon as they have their A license for some but never for others.

Just leave it up to local DZOs/S&TAs to work out amongst their local jumpers.

Why the incessant need to make regulations that pervade the macro-community?

Has someone called for regulations on rodeo rirding?


pms07  (D 7571)

Aug 26, 2012, 3:29 PM
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Re: [kallend] Experience needed to be a rodeo rider [In reply to] Can't Post

"B" license and 75 jumps minimum seems a very reasonable guide. Consider currency, past performance and type of jumping the potential rider has been doing also.

USPA allows a "B" license holder (50 jumps minimum) to do night jumps. Given that, I see no reason 75 jumps is not sufficient for wingsuit rodeo. No regulation needed of course...and I don't believe anyone has called for that.

The SEWS manual has what seems a very good briefing for doing wingsuit rodeos. Others have said it as well but worth repeating; DSE has done wingsuiting a considerable service by making their instructional materials available at no cost.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Aug 26, 2012, 6:35 PM
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Re: [The111] Experience needed to be a rodeo rider [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The biggest potential issue that I don't see mentioned here is that the pilot can significantly alter the spot of the passenger, essentially forcing her to land off. I've seen it happen multiple times. If the DZ does not have many good outs, now you have someone with 75 jumps being forced to land in a backyard. Or worse, in the Elsinore situation, if she had been over foothills (terrain higher than 750ft), this would have been a fatality.
If a rodeo were to be over an area off the DZ here (and it was confirmed) they'd be at least talked to, and at most, restricted from doing rodeos. Rodeos are limited to the inner lane of flight (at this DZ, and yes, I recognize other DZ's don't use "freeway lanes")
In the Elsinore incident, the rider was over the northwest area of the DZ at dismount.


Fast  (D 28237)

Aug 27, 2012, 7:34 AM
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Re: [pms07] Experience needed to be a rodeo rider [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
USPA allows a "B" license holder (50 jumps minimum) to do night jumps. Given that, I see no reason 75 jumps is not sufficient for wingsuit rodeo. No regulation needed of course...and I don't believe anyone has called for that.

Yeah man I agree. I have seen by percentage so many people make mistakes and hurt themselves on night jumps compared to any other type of skydiving. (And I am talking what I have personally witnessed)

I also agree that it depends some on the dropzone, at my place an off landing really isn't a big deal, we have plentiful outs in every direction. At a place like crosskeys or something, the whole subject gets changed, mostly cause the whole subject of wingsuiting and outs changes.

I don't think that there is anything exceptional or advanced about holding onto the back of a wingsuiter.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Aug 27, 2012, 4:48 PM
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Re: [DSE] Experience needed to be a rodeo rider [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Page 10

Apparently some feel that is not enough. Having seen several sub-50 jump (even a couple A license grads) on rodeos, it seems 75 is a fair bar. Less than we expect a Coach to manage, more than a B license grad. Perhaps we need to consider raising the number; it's not been an issue in the past.

Apparently I screwed up the link:
https://docs.google.com/...u4_IlYVhTc2lFdzNPM0k
Sorry 'bout that.


piisfish

Aug 28, 2012, 1:26 AM
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Re: [DSE] Experience needed to be a rodeo rider [In reply to] Can't Post

a DD license would be a minimum Blush


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Aug 28, 2012, 6:57 AM
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Re: [kallend] Experience needed to be a rodeo rider [In reply to] Can't Post

Some of the folks at Northeast Bird School use 100 as a rough threshold.

Personally, I don't think there is anything special or difficult about holding onto a wingsuiter's back.

However, I think the reason why 100 makes sense is that you want a jumper who is experienced enough with landing his or her canopy that they can handle an out landing in case things go to Hell right out the door. You also want an experienced "horse", too - someone with just a few wingsuit flights really shouldn't be taking passengers.

It's really a judgment call, though. [Shrug.]


ifell  (C 3591)

Aug 28, 2012, 8:05 AM
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Re: [Skwrl] Experience needed to be a rodeo rider [In reply to] Can't Post

That's right Skwrl I have seen a couple of these threads here about how much experience needed to ride but what about the bird... Or horse? Seems like it would be more important for the wingsuit pilot to have a decent amount of experience. I mean hell, I landed out on my (checking logbook) 26th jump and 28th and 35th! Granted I had nice outs but still... I have just over 100 wingsuit jumps now and when I think of the risk/reward factor on rodeos I much rather chase and I feel like it is usually taken too lightly among new wingies.

Just the other day I witnessed a wingsuiter with a dozen flights take someone on a rodeo and thought he was either oblivious to the dangers or simply did not care and even after pointing some of the dangers he went so...


Butters  (C 37840)

Aug 28, 2012, 8:10 AM
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Re: [ifell] Experience needed to be a rodeo rider [In reply to] Can't Post

I might be mistaken but didn't Jeff Nebelkopf get into a spin during a rodeo that resulted in a spin fast enough to burst the blood vessels in his eyes? A lot of experience might not be necessary but at least a little is ...


normiss  (D 28356)

Aug 28, 2012, 8:17 AM
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Re: [Butters] Experience needed to be a rodeo rider [In reply to] Can't Post

At that time I wouldn't say Jeff was all that experienced...it WAS early on! He should have tried it on his back. He's always had a rock solid back fly.

MY EYES!!!!

I believe that picture still hangs in what is left of a birdhouse in Zephyrtucky.



man those were the fun days!
Cool


stayhigh  (F 111)

Aug 28, 2012, 8:37 AM
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Re: [kallend] Experience needed to be a rodeo rider [In reply to] Can't Post

25 jumps. Fresh A license. And The guy that wears Purple wingsuit.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Aug 28, 2012, 10:34 AM
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Re: [ifell] Experience needed to be a rodeo rider [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That's right Skwrl I have seen a couple of these threads here about how much experience needed to ride but what about the bird... Or horse? Seems like it would be more important for the wingsuit pilot to have a decent amount of experience. I mean hell, I landed out on my (checking logbook) 26th jump and 28th and 35th! Granted I had nice outs but still... I have just over 100 wingsuit jumps now and when I think of the risk/reward factor on rodeos I much rather chase and I feel like it is usually taken too lightly among new wingies.

Just the other day I witnessed a wingsuiter with a dozen flights take someone on a rodeo and thought he was either oblivious to the dangers or simply did not care and even after pointing some of the dangers he went so...

In our reference manual, you'll note that a wingsuiter needs 100 WS jumps before taking a rodeo on our DZ.
I agree; different DZ's have different situations. Elsinore has huge outs, rodeos are never not over the DZ. Other DZ's have no outs, trees, rocks, ravines...Big difference between a rodeo in Mesquite or Pepperell than at somewhere like CSC or Skydive Elsinore.


Butters  (C 37840)

Aug 28, 2012, 12:06 PM
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Re: [normiss] Experience needed to be a rodeo rider [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At that time I wouldn't say Jeff was all that experienced...it WAS early on! He should have tried it on his back. He's always had a rock solid back fly.

MY EYES!!!!

I was just mentioning it as a new wingsuiter and or rodeo rider could easily recreate it.


(This post was edited by Butters on Aug 28, 2012, 1:36 PM)


mccordia  (D 94775)

Aug 28, 2012, 1:19 PM
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Re: [Butters] Experience needed to be a rodeo rider [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd also say AAD on both jumpers mandatory. The changes of two people smashing into eachother hard due to a messed up exit are quite realistic. As are the chances of other people on the jump getting hit by the wingsuiter or rider at the time someone falls/jumps of.

Pull-offs, I would only do those (if you do them) with more experienced skydivers, as hesitations and pilotchutes in burbles create a whole other arena of intersting situations for rider and pilot that a newby jumper with 80 to 100 skydives probably doesnt need to be in at that experience level.


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Aug 29, 2012, 7:45 AM
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Re: [DSE] Experience needed to be a rodeo rider [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In our reference manual, you'll note that a wingsuiter needs 100 WS jumps before taking a rodeo on our DZ * * *
I agree; different DZ's have different situations * * * Big difference between a rodeo in Mesquite or Pepperell than at somewhere like CSC or Skydive Elsinore.

All very true. And good idea on the 100 wingsuits minimum.

In reply to:
I'd also say AAD on both jumpers mandatory. The changes of two people smashing into eachother hard due to a messed up exit are quite realistic.

Somewhere in my stack of pictures and videos (no luck finding it so far), I have video from a few years ago of a smallish woman riding on the back of one of my friends; the exit got botched and she basically flipped over the front of him. (Picture her still holding on after it went to Chaos, but her back was basically laying on his head and he was basically flying straight down.) She was determined as Hell to hold on, and to their credit they were able to right the formation, but I could very easily seen it play out with her hurting him pretty badly (laying down on his head), her getting hurt pretty badly (Tonfly helmet jammed into her back), or both.

That's a long-winded way of saying, "yeah, an AAD is a really good idea."


SuperGirl  (D 30091)

Aug 29, 2012, 8:31 PM
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Re: [mccordia] Experience needed to be a rodeo rider [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'd also say AAD on both jumpers mandatory.

Great point. Adding "AAD checks" to my pre-rodeo checklist.

Along the same lines, I guess wearing a helmet is also important.
Was just at Summerfest a few weeks ago and watched a good friend get his gopro kicked off his helmet due to a messed up rodeo exit. That's enough force that, if applied to the right region of your skull, can knock you out.

To answer the original question, I personally highly recommend 100+ jumps for rodeos, and very current, heads-up flyer.

The passenger doesn't just need to "hold on".
Sure, flying skills help, knowing what to do with the air around them makes for an easier ride.

But most importantly, they need to be aware of what's going on, and capable to react quickly and effectively in weird situations.

They need to be visually aware of altitude (the altimeter doesn't always read correctly in the burble), have a good sense of time elapsed and when it's likely time to get off etc.

Passenger needs to be comfortable either landing off or making it back from a long spot. Finding the dropzone from further out, flying the canopy optimally from a long spot, having the presence of mind to pull higher in case of accidental dismount and longer spot (assuming the circumstances allow for it - no big boogie with too many aircraft dropping jumpers at the same time, proper communication with everyone else on the load beforehand etc)

When the rodeo goes to shit, we may try a few tumbles and recovery attempts before giving up. The passenger needs to recognize when things are going too fast the wrong way, and let go. An inexperienced skydiver might hold on for dear life thinking it's just part of the fun, not realizing that the poor wingsuiter is getting bloodshot eyes as they desperately try to abandon the plan.

Whatever you do, make sure to dirt dive both the exit and the flying position.
Yea, I always get an array of nasty jokes when dirt diving a rodeo (often with some dude twice as big as I am), but it is by far one of the most crucial steps in ensuring the rodeo's success. Passenger needs to see where your wings are, where their knees/feet/pelvis/hands etc are going to sit, practice exit, practice flying position, and notice where your handles are and how to avoid them at all costs!

As far as the wingsuiter's experience is concerned - fully agree with the 100 wingsuit jump minimum requirement. I might also add being very current on the suit they are planning on flying. If you just upsized big time, it might not be the best idea to test fly your new toy on a rodeo. Baby steps.
Wingsuiter needs to be well versed in instability recovery on their own before attempting any maneuvers with a passenger on top.
Wingsuiter also needs to be capable of briefing their passenger on all of the above (make sure to reserve enough time before the jump to do so - don't just manifest for the load and talk about it at the 5 minute call)



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