Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies

 

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Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Aug 23, 2012, 11:39 AM
Post #1 of 81 (5049 views)
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     Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies  

No need to get out your chequebooks...youtube/vimeo links will be fine.

The age old argument that "You can outswoop a swooper on a tiny elliptical by learning how to fly your normal canopy" is frankly a bit of BS. So, let's see it. Post the link to any video you can find that shows a "normal" canopy outswooping an elliptical/xbrace etc...

I'm talking Sabre2, Safire, Pilot, Spectre, whatever...anything other than your standard Xfire, Katana, Velo etc...

Im not doubting that you can bust an awesome swoop on a Sabre2, just looking for god honest swoops that show a standard "sport" canopy keeping pace with the swooping kids.




On that same note, am I the only one who would love to see the PD team host a mini swoop comp restricted to reasonable sized sport canopies? IE: Sabre2 120 minimum, with a pro swooper under the wing. I think that would be pretty damn entertaining.


michalm21  (Student)

Aug 23, 2012, 12:34 PM
Post #2 of 81 (4992 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

Scott Miller swooping a 220 Navigator Smile
http://youtu.be/VXbDidEKYho


5.samadhi

Aug 23, 2012, 1:02 PM
Post #3 of 81 (4974 views)
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     Re: [michalm21] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

thats pretty rad what does he initiate that at 250'??? Laugh


Deyan  (D 322)

Aug 23, 2012, 1:32 PM
Post #4 of 81 (4955 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

My favorite one Tongue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU1tHOgdVag

Just for the record.... that's not me Unsure

P.S. This one is not bad neither

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yttmFw4_JOM


Fast  (D 28237)

Aug 23, 2012, 1:39 PM
Post #5 of 81 (4945 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

In reply to:
The age old argument that "You can outswoop a swooper on a tiny elliptical by learning how to fly your normal canopy" is frankly a bit of BS. So, let's see it. Post the link to any video you can find that shows a "normal" canopy outswooping an elliptical/xbrace etc...

Is that what the argument is? I thought it was, you learn faster on a canopy you can handle and that most people flying a normal canopy to learn can generally out swoop those who rush into a "swooper" canopy.

That said, I likely can out swoop you on a saber 2 120, even if you were jumping a velocity 120. Mostly based on the fact that i have thousands (literally) more swoops than you.

The whole argument is about skill and how fast you can increase that skill based on what you're jumping.

Edit to add, I could consistently (read almost every time) hit 10 ft gates and go 200-300 feet with a saber 1 150. In many varying wind conditions.


(This post was edited by Fast on Aug 23, 2012, 1:40 PM)


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Aug 23, 2012, 1:54 PM
Post #6 of 81 (4932 views)
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     Re: [Fast] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

Hey man, I didn't ask you to prove that your dick is bigger, I just asked for some videos of people jumping bigger canopies. There is a tonne of threads on here that tell some noob that they shouldn't downsize, or buy an elliptical because if they learn to fly what they have, they will be better and will be able to "outswoop" a real swooping canopy because they "know how to fly it better". I'm not trying to condone downsizing or buying a velo after 100 jumps, I'm trying to gather some videos so when noobs complain that they've gotten all they can out of their Sabre2 150...they can find this thread, and these videos and be proven that they have not.

I'd love to see Jay M, tear a Sabre2 150 a new asshole...but you know what. It doesn't exist yet we still try to convince noobs that it really is "just as good". Let's show them the capability so they have something to agree with.



Oh and:

Quote:
I likely can out swoop you on a saber 2 120, even if you were jumping a velocity 120

You and I both know that this is a load of crap, but feel free to keep trying to convince people on the interwebz of your uber skillz.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Aug 23, 2012, 4:50 PM
Post #7 of 81 (4890 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

In reply to:
You and I both know that this is a load of crap, but feel free to keep trying to convince people on the interwebz of your uber skillz.

I'd put all my money on fast. Your 500 jumps ain't shit in the world of swooping!


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Aug 23, 2012, 5:17 PM
Post #8 of 81 (4875 views)
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     Re: [Mr_Polite] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

And the funny thing is that I never said I was the swoop king or that I can go farther etc... Actually, I never even mentioned myself at all. He needed to tell everyone how much of a skygod he is and I simply gave him the opportunity by creating a thread in the swooping forum.

And considering I've never jumped a Velo, I don't doubt that he would beat me. But if he was going against anyone who had an opportunity to mildly familiarize themselves with that Velo, there's not a chance in hell that Fast and his magical Sabre2 120 would come out on top. At least he can sleep tonight knowing that he can beat someone who has zero experience on a wing and 1/6th the number of jumps. I'd be pretty proud too (or not).


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 23, 2012, 5:30 PM
Post #9 of 81 (4867 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

A couple of years ago I started shooting video with a Sabre2 170 for something I was calling "The Everyday Canopy Project." Unfortunately I only got one weekend of footage shot from the jumper's perspective doing some stalls, flat turns and swoops and never got to shooting the footage for the outside perspective. The point was to show what you can do on a normal canopy.

I firmly believe that a "normal" canopy flown at the top of its ability can out perform an open nose 9-cell flown as many jumpers fly them. 9-cells like XF2s and Katanas.

A Sabre2 loaded at 1.7-1.9 won't out swoop a Velo loaded at 2.5 in the right hands. However, I believe you can firmly embarrass many of the wanna-be swoopers who downsized too fast and are behind their canopy's flight.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Aug 23, 2012, 6:55 PM
Post #10 of 81 (4850 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

Cool story.


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Aug 23, 2012, 7:26 PM
Post #11 of 81 (4839 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

Here's a couple on a Sabre2 135 loaded at 2:1

http://www.youtube.com/...qcI&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/...oJo&feature=plcp


dragon2  (D 101989)

Aug 24, 2012, 12:33 AM
Post #12 of 81 (4778 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

I've seen Bruno Brokken swoop a spectre (120 ?) further than some velos, so yeah, if ya got the skills, Smile


trigger  (D 101390)

Aug 24, 2012, 1:02 AM
Post #13 of 81 (4772 views)
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     Re: [dragon2] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

Me to.
Point of contention. At what wing loadingCrazydoes a canopy become hp.
1.4 imo


hillson  (D 33134)

Aug 24, 2012, 5:54 AM
Post #14 of 81 (4729 views)
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     Re: [dragon2] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

In reply to:
I've seen Bruno Brokken swoop a spectre (120 ?) further than some velos, so yeah, if ya got the skills, Smile

Tony Hathaway can swoop the shit of of a Spectre, too. The pilot makes the wing etc etc.

Me? I just like watching top pilots do their thing. Laugh


NealFitz  (C 106601)

Aug 24, 2012, 6:22 AM
Post #15 of 81 (4717 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

i watched my FS coach swoop my old Electra 170. had about 12000swoops under his belt. fastest i ever saw that canopy go Laugh


Fast  (D 28237)

Aug 24, 2012, 7:56 AM
Post #16 of 81 (4683 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Oh and:

Quote:
I likely can out swoop you on a saber 2 120, even if you were jumping a velocity 120

You and I both know that this is a load of crap, but feel free to keep trying to convince people on the interwebz of your uber skillz.

I'm not trying to prove anything. See the other thread about swooping, I could care less who can swoop better or worse than me, I'm just here trying to have fun. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything there, it's just statements of fact.

With a highly skilled pilot who is equally competent on both canopies, of course they are going to get more performance out of a velocity. No one is arguing that at all. (And that is the point I was making).


Now, if you compare two different people, who are starting out as noobs, at 300 jumps both of them decide to learn swooping. One sticks with the saber2 he has been jumping and downsizes to a 120 and the other switches to a velocity, the guy who sticks with saber class canopy is likely to learn faster and in a much safer manner.

If they both stick with the same canopy, eventually the guy on the velocity is gonna be out swooping him, if he lives that long w/o breaking himself, etc.

It looks something like the attached image.

FWIW, I don't have any jumps on a saber 2 120 either, I just picked that size cause it's the biggest velocity that they make.

You said that you're just asking for video, then claim that I am on here acting Skygod and whatever, trying to prove my uber skills, but clearly you came to this thread with some kind of chip on your shoulder. I mean, I know - I'm an experienced skydiver, we really are just trying to keep everyone down all the time, so that's a lot to compete with. What can I say (/sarcasm/kidding/etc).

Also, I don't actually "know that this is a load of crap" because I generally don't come on the internet to make stuff up, I actually believe in what I was writing.

My wife owns a saber2 120 - I'll see if it fits in my rig. She doesn't swoop so I can't show you any of her hot swoop video. Tongue


(This post was edited by Fast on Aug 24, 2012, 7:57 AM)
Attachments: lc.jpg (17.4 KB)


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Aug 24, 2012, 7:58 AM
Post #17 of 81 (4681 views)
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     Re: [NealFitz] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

Thanks so far everyone. I think we can all agree that it's completely possible to bust out a wicked swoop on a "reasonable" canopy.

I'm wondering how willing the pro swoopers would be to film them landing on various canopies. That way, when a noob says, My Spectre is garbage so I want to buy a Stiletto, we they can see that their "landings" are garbage as compared to a swooper on the same canopy.

I really like the videos of the 230's and stuff, but a reasonable canopy loaded above 1.5 really isn't reasonable anymore. We wouldn't tell a student that the canopy is great, but you have to load it at 2.0 to get a wicked swoop. I want to see some pro's swooping the 170+ sizes.

I must say that Scott Miller on the Navigator 230 (220?) was pretty badass.


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Aug 24, 2012, 8:12 AM
Post #18 of 81 (4672 views)
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     Re: [Fast] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

Thanks Fast, now I will completely agree with you. I agree, in principle, that someone who really learns to fly a reasonable canopy before upgrading will generally do better in the long run. There are some huge factors to consider such as currency, aptitude, and instruction but in principle...yes. As far as friendly competition goes, I would love to duel it out. You on a Sabre 120 and me on a Velo 120. The only difference would be wingloading. I'd load a Velo 120 at 1.25 which I'm certain would result in pretty poor performance.

All I was getting at was that you came on and tried to prove yourself as an awesome swooper (which I don't doubt that you are), but the thread wasn't about who can do what, it was about finding videos that noobs can see which will lead them away from downsizing too quickly.

All this to say, I would LOVE to see a comparison video of your swoops. Seeing what a high performance canopy nets you, with the same jumper on the same size "sport" canopy. I know it will not be the same, but I suspect that it will be pretty impressive. I honestly hope you are able to get this and post some video.


BMFin

Aug 24, 2012, 5:45 PM
Post #19 of 81 (4554 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

I agree with Fast. Learning all the fundamentals on a "larger" canopy is recommendable. For example I have seen someone taking all the juice out of a Vengeance 120 and then move straight to Xaos 83 and pretty much start nailing the swoops after a brief adjustment. Someone here might think this sort of downsize is too agressive. However, IMO if you really spend the time to learn that 120, its no problem at all.

IMO if one learns all the principles of swooping with a slower canopy, they can transalate that all later on pretty easily. Then you will have the tool set you need for that canopy.


(This post was edited by BMFin on Aug 24, 2012, 5:47 PM)


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Aug 25, 2012, 8:49 AM
Post #20 of 81 (4494 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

http://youtu.be/xrLAL8jXnak

Not too bad either


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Aug 25, 2012, 9:28 AM
Post #21 of 81 (4490 views)
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     Re: [EFS4LIFE] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

Earl Davis Jr just schooled a ton of people on his Sabre 2 120 at Pink Open in Klatovy loaded around 1.8

Super impressed with his skills on a 'big' canopy at a very high level meet.


Decodiver  (D License)

Aug 26, 2012, 2:44 PM
Post #22 of 81 (4347 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Hey man, I didn't ask you to prove that your dick is bigger, I just asked for some videos of people jumping bigger canopies. There is a tonne of threads on here that tell some noob that they shouldn't downsize, or buy an elliptical because if they learn to fly what they have, they will be better and will be able to "outswoop" a real swooping canopy because they "know how to fly it better". I'm not trying to condone downsizing or buying a velo after 100 jumps, I'm trying to gather some videos so when noobs complain that they've gotten all they can out of their Sabre2 150...they can find this thread, and these videos and be proven that they have not.

I'd love to see Jay M, tear a Sabre2 150 a new asshole...but you know what. It doesn't exist yet we still try to convince noobs that it really is "just as good". Let's show them the capability so they have something to agree with.



Oh and:

Quote:
I likely can out swoop you on a saber 2 120, even if you were jumping a velocity 120

You and I both know that this is a load of crap, but feel free to keep trying to convince people on the interwebz of your uber skillz.

Yawn..................


frost  (D 25011)

Aug 27, 2012, 9:04 AM
Post #23 of 81 (4251 views)
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     Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy27ORjYBt4

A 270 swoop with a superman thrown in for a good count under a 9 cell Magellan 120 (equivalent of a Sabre-2) @ 2:1. While wearing a wingsuit (extra drag). The camera was set up to film the deployment, hence the unusual POV.

Yes, you CAN outswoop a mediocre swooper on a tiny elliptical by learning how to fly a "normal" canopy well. It's been done many times before.


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Aug 28, 2012, 6:52 AM
Post #24 of 81 (4053 views)
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     Re: [frost] Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

That looks pretty damn impressive, but we're also well beyond a standard sport canopy loading. 2:1 is nothing that a new'ish jumper would be considering (in most cases i hope).

But wait? No one went out this weekend and got a video of them on a Sabre2 150 busting a 600+ foot swoop? I'm shocked!

There seems to be a lot of claims in this thread but no proof that I would consider competition for an average person who downsized too quickly and didn't learn. Yes, there have been videos posted of large canopies swooping, but nowhere near the distance/speed that seems to be claimed.

What exactly are people trying to convince new jumpers of? That they can swoop just as far as the world record if they just learn the canopy? Or that they can simply bust out a swoop in general on any canopy? or that they should be able to swoop 250ft on a regular canopy? Are we just saying that they'll be a little safer?What are we trying to compare here?


(This post was edited by Chris-Ottawa on Aug 28, 2012, 6:56 AM)


excaza  (C License)

Aug 28, 2012, 7:06 AM
Post #25 of 81 (4044 views)
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     Put your money where your mouth is - Swooping "Normal" canopies [In reply to]  

Quite an axe to grind.


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