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Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This!

 


Gato  (C License)

Aug 23, 2012, 3:56 PM
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Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! Can't Post

I've only been a rigger for about 4 years, but I'm constantly amazed at what some other riggers consider to be "ok." For example:

I'm doing an inspection on a very nicely preserved 2000 Jav, business as usual, when I encountered something I've never seen before...a reserve PC that had a hole "patched" with ripstop tape!

What, the ever-loving fuck, was a previous rigger thinking? Or was he just...not?

This is almost as funny to me as when I read in a certain Rigger's handbook that a broken suspension line "...may be spliced together in an emergency..." (What would possibly constitute this "emergency" of which you speak? Your customer cuts away at a boogie? Your customer HAS TO jump this weekend, and you don't have time to replace the line? Fuck.)

A note to my fellow riggers: Don't use ripstop tape on any part of the reserve system. Patch it or replace it, but for fuck's sake, try to give at least a portion of a shit about your customers!


pchapman  (D 1014)

Aug 23, 2012, 5:46 PM
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Re: [Gato] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
a broken suspension line "...may be spliced together in an emergency..." !

Seems reasonable ... on a main. I've done a finger trap splice, inserting short piece of line, with some hand stitching, to get someone back in the air for a demo jump.


In reply to:
...a reserve PC that had a hole "patched" with ripstop tape!

Despite the rules, I bet it is very tempting to just do that instead of much more time consuming or expensive options (like a full disassembly of the PC or buying a new one), for those annoying wear points that happen on some reserve pilot chutes.
Makes me wonder to what degree modern adhesives actually degrade nylon, and how long it takes, even if that's the issue stated in rigging books for decades.

Edit:
And I can see a customer complaining that if a wear spot exists in his reserve PC, then it is the fault of his riggers anyway, because the wear happens through packing ...


(This post was edited by pchapman on Aug 23, 2012, 5:48 PM)


Gato  (C License)

Aug 23, 2012, 6:02 PM
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Re: [pchapman] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed, but this wasn't a rig I had repacked before, and Javelin reserve PCs are notorious for wear because of how the mfr. wants the fabric stowed. Some riggers are a bit aggressive with their packing paddles.

Also, the line splice thing...on a main, I can see that being ok. But by definition, if it's a splice on a main, there's no reason to use the word, "emergency." That's what the reserve is for.

Good times. Cool


RiggerLee

Aug 23, 2012, 7:04 PM
Post #4 of 24 (2717 views)
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Re: [Gato] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

I've spliced lines in the field like that. I'll give you an example. I was at a land race/fly in on a dry lake bed. This poor guy sucked a couple of lines into his prop on his powered parachute/trike. Guy was bummed. He's grounded on his first day in the middle of no where 500 miles away from his dealer. I walk over and look at it and go rumage around in the back of my car. I found some old line, it was one of the PD canopies so it used standard microline. With a peace out of an old line set and a fid made from some safety wire from his tool box. I was able to "splice" the two lines. A few hand stitches to hold it from slipping and I was done. 100% as strong as it was before and trim to withen 1/8 of an inch. The only alturnitive was for him to cancle his whole vacation road trip for the year and ship his canopy back to PD and try again next season.

I have a well equiped shop here. I can fix just about any thing. But I'm not always here. If I'm out in the middle of the desert in newmexico launching a missle I may not have the luxury of a dozen sewing machines at my disposal. When your launch window has to be scedguled with the FAA, DOD, White sands, and fucking Norrad you make it happion. And you do it with what you have on hand. The term is field expeadent repare. And that does not imply that it is any less serviceable, weaker, or less airworthey then something done in my shop. It's a skill in and of it's self. And when there's over a million dollars on the line I say that qualifies as an emergency. And when there's a problem and every one turns and looks at you, you figure it the fuck out and you do it with what's on hand.

Lee


councilman24  (D 8631)

Aug 23, 2012, 7:10 PM
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Re: [Gato] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Young grasshopper, you haven't seen anything yet!Wink

This is hardly worth a mention compared to other things that I and others have seen. For many old time riggers ripstop tape is standard in their rigger kit. The splicing the line idea comes from a time of Dacron lines and lower performance canopies. Needing a main for a boogie IS an emergency for many.Angelic Especially when you might be missing out on jumping a big/special plane for the whole year in the 'olden' days. Not something I'd usually choose to do.


peek  (D 8884)

Aug 23, 2012, 7:47 PM
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Re: [RiggerLee] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When there's over a million dollars on the line I say that qualifies as an emergency.

Lee, that would make a very good signature line!


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 23, 2012, 8:03 PM
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Re: [Gato] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

"
In reply to:
... and Javelin reserve PCs are notorious for wear because of how the mfr. wants the fabric stowed. Some riggers are a bit aggressive with their packing paddles. ...

Good times. Cool
"

.....................................................................

If they are still using a packing paddle to stuff fabric between the coils of the springs, they have not read the most recent version of the Javelin manual.

During my last rigging course, I stopped a candidate from using a packing paddle - on a Javelin pilot-chute. I showed him the modern method, then pulled the ripcord and said: "Now you try it the modern way."


theonlyski  (D License)

Aug 23, 2012, 8:25 PM
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Re: [riggerrob] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If they are still using a packing paddle to stuff fabric between the coils of the springs, they have not read the most recent version of the Javelin manual.

+1

No need for a packing paddle to dress the PC fabric on the Javs.


Gato  (C License)

Aug 23, 2012, 9:16 PM
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Re: [theonlyski] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree - I wasn't taught to use a paddle for that, either.

Please understand, guys: I'm just talking about what I found today, and the damage I've observed from others' packjobs.

I brought this to you all because I thought it was worth talking about, especially given how specific the FAA is in testing us - and holding us ultimately responsible, should an incident occur.

Incidentally, I've only been a riggjer for a few years, but I'm not an impetuous 20-something (I'm 45.) I take this job very seriously, as I have no desire to kill or maim a friend or client. I'm at an age when following the rules actually brings me a little bit of comfort, strange as that may sound, coming from a skydiver.


theonlyski  (D License)

Aug 23, 2012, 9:20 PM
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Re: [Gato] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope you don't think I'm busting your chops about this, I'm really not!

I have turned gear away for repacks that other riggers have no issue with repacking. It's the nature of the game. If someone is going to get hurt because of it, I don't want my name anywhere near it! Short of destroying their gear, I can't stop them.

I've seen Javelin PC's with several holes in the PC that riggers continue to pack... but not me.


Gato  (C License)

Aug 23, 2012, 9:30 PM
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Re: [peek] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When there's over a million dollars on the line I say that qualifies as an emergency.

I feel compelled to disagree with this statement...not trying to be argumentative, but is military rigging the same as sport rigging?

I don't work on missile systems at White Sands, I just work on sport rigs. And I probably don't know shit.


RiggerLee

Aug 23, 2012, 10:28 PM
Post #12 of 24 (2592 views)
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Re: [Gato] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Actually I come from a sport background not a millitry one. A lot of the tecnology I'm working with right now on these projects is new to me. I've had the chance in this project to work around some people that come from the millitary cargo side and it's interesting... It's all parachutes but they tend to approach problems in diffrent ways. They use slightly diffrent tecnologies and diffrent solutions. Some times with very good reason do to the enviroment that they are working in and some times it just conventions that they are comfertable with. It's like slightly diffrent lines of evelution, neanderthals, and homoerectis or what ever the other branch was.

Are they the same? Yes. In the same sence the italion and mexican are both foods. I like both, hell some times I like sushi. You just work on sport rigs... right now. Who knows what you'll be doing tomarrow. What I'm trying to say is keep an open mind. Stay open to learning. When ever you get the chance to hang out in another loft do it. Never pass up the chance to watch how other people work or do things. Especally if you get the chance to hang out around people from one of these other disaplins. You may find that you can incorparate the things you see and learn into your own work. I love to learn new ways of doing things.

Lee


theonlyski  (D License)

Aug 24, 2012, 6:52 AM
Post #13 of 24 (2463 views)
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Re: [Gato] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
When there's over a million dollars on the line I say that qualifies as an emergency.

I feel compelled to disagree with this statement...not trying to be argumentative, but is military rigging the same as sport rigging?

I don't work on missile systems at White Sands, I just work on sport rigs. And I probably don't know shit.

I've rip-stop taped a few canopies that had small holes (less than 1"x1" usually), spliced a few lines, tacked lines to stabilizers with super tack etc... All for test drops for military cargo gear.

Would I do it on a sport rig? Probably not, definitely not on a reserve system, but if someone brought me a main with a broken line they needed ASAFP and for whatever reason I couldn't replace it then, I'd offer them a splice and let them choose.

It is a good set of skills to have in your tool box, even if you never really use them.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 24, 2012, 7:27 AM
Post #14 of 24 (2441 views)
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Re: [Gato] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

In this century, I have only used ripstop tape to patch tandem drogues. Even so, I still (machine) sew a row of E-thread around the edge.


jonathan.newman  (D 30644)

Aug 24, 2012, 7:30 AM
Post #15 of 24 (2441 views)
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Re: [Gato] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

The more you rig, the more you'll see.

Some manufacturers do consider double-sided repairs with ripstop tape to be a permanent fix; some don't. I didn't see anything about repairs to the pilot chute in the sunpath manual, however it does a good job addressing wear to the harness webbing. Worth reading the appendix just for that.

My DZ probably does about 500 tandems a week on 15 rigs. One of our newest canopies broke a center A-line just below the fingertrap cascade. The same day, one of our packers found an identical spot fraying on an identical canopy. (Icarus 330, BTW, in case anyone else is seeing the same issue). We didn't have the proper material to replace the line, so I took two lengths from the old brake line that was recently replaced, and did a fingertrap splice above and below the cascade, then re-installed the cascade.

That was done around 7 weeks ago, and both are still holding up. I'm OK with leaving the splice as a permanent repair. My esteemed colleague RayDutch does not consider it permanent and will probably replace the line whenever he gets a chance to breathe. But in the meantime, we're still jumping the crap out of it.


masterrig  (D License)

Aug 24, 2012, 3:10 PM
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Re: [Gato] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Probably every rigger, in time, has seen things similar or things that would make the hair on the back of your neck stand-up. It comes with the job. It's how you deal with it that matters.
I've done a finger-trap splice on a Manta that was only a month old at the time. I did it according to that 'certain Rigger's handbook'. That splice held-up till the parachute was ragged-out and replaced with a new parachute. I wouldn't do that on a reserve but if done right, it works.


Chuck


Gato  (C License)

Aug 24, 2012, 4:36 PM
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Re: [masterrig] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

I just want to make it clear that nothing I've posted/said here should make anyone think I have something against splicing a line or using ripstop tape - I don't have a problem with either of those things. What I had a problem with was the use of the word, "emergency."

I'm VERY open to learning new stuff, and I'm always trying to expand my skill set. I spend a great deal of time with a DPRE, so when I have a question about something, I take it to him. And I've had the opportunity to work on projects that most new riggers don't really get to, for which I am very grateful. (I'll be relining a Stiletto in a couple of weeks...after building the lineset myself!)

I really appreciate everyone's input. At the very least, I've learned that I have to be very careful and CLEAR about what I say/post.

Hope you all have a great weekend!

Be fun, have safe -

Gato, out. Cool


RiggerLee

Aug 24, 2012, 4:41 PM
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Re: [masterrig] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
This thread has had me thinking. It's not perticualy unique there only about twenty others like it but it epidimises some thing I've seen over the years. Perticuarly among younger riggers, I've been guilty of it my self at times.

The heart of the question is this. What is an accepable standard for equipment condition and repares in out industry? I have my own thoughts but I'd really like to hear what others think. If possable I'd like you to try to articulate it.

I've seen attitudes over the years that ran the whole spectrum from one extreame to the other. Running all the way from insestance that compleatly free of damage and vertually ment condition at one end too the attitude that it hasn't broken yet at the other.

Rather then give or use examples I'd like you to try to state your standards of what you feel is acceptable.

Lee


masterrig  (D License)

Aug 24, 2012, 5:36 PM
Post #19 of 24 (2269 views)
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Re: [Gato] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't get that impression, at all. I just threw-out an 'experience' I encountered.
That's good! Always keep that 'open-minded' attitude. When you think you know it all, that's the time to get out of it. Good luck to you with the re-line on that Stiletto! That's some good experience, starting from scratch.

Be safe!


Chuck


masterrig  (D License)

Aug 24, 2012, 5:44 PM
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Re: [RiggerLee] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

I always strived to 'imitate' the manufacturer's work and would not 'mix 'n match'. I always used parts and fabrics from the manufacturer's of various harness-containers or parachutes or reputable suppliers. I've always been a stickler for going by the book and if I had questions, I called manufacturer's for help and advice. Pretty basic, I guess.


Chuck


Gato  (C License)

Aug 24, 2012, 6:42 PM
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Re: [masterrig] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, one last post here.

My standard is pretty simple, and high: If I would be comfortable putting the rig on my sister (or myself, 'cause I'm a "fraidycat," LOL) then I'm comfortable giving it back to a customer to jump it. No rig is perfect, because a human will operate it, but that's just my perspective.

Gotta eat and drink beer - y'all have a good one.


masterrig  (D License)

Aug 24, 2012, 6:54 PM
Post #22 of 24 (2247 views)
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Re: [Gato] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Not a bad attitude! Good luck to you in your rigging career... and keep that attitude.


Chuck


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 24, 2012, 9:52 PM
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Re: [masterrig] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I always strived to 'imitate' the manufacturer's work and would not 'mix 'n match'. I always used parts and fabrics from the manufacturer's of various harness-containers or parachutes or reputable suppliers. I've always been a stickler for going by the book and if I had questions, I called manufacturer's for help and advice. Pretty basic, I guess.


Chuck

This may be the best post on rigging I seen. Smile

Sparky


WatchYourStep  (D License)

Aug 26, 2012, 7:49 AM
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Re: [Gato] Awesomeness I Have Found...Riggers Will LOVE This! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've only been a rigger for about 4 years, but I'm constantly amazed at what some other riggers consider to be "ok." For example:

I'm doing an inspection on a very nicely preserved 2000 Jav, business as usual, when I encountered something I've never seen before...a reserve PC that had a hole "patched" with ripstop tape!

What, the ever-loving fuck, was a previous rigger thinking? Or was he just...not?

This is almost as funny to me as when I read in a certain Rigger's handbook that a broken suspension line "...may be spliced together in an emergency..." (What would possibly constitute this "emergency" of which you speak? Your customer cuts away at a boogie? Your customer HAS TO jump this weekend, and you don't have time to replace the line? Fuck.)

A note to my fellow riggers: Don't use ripstop tape on any part of the reserve system. Patch it or replace it, but for fuck's sake, try to give at least a portion of a shit about your customers!

Did you contact said rigger to let them know of their mistake? If I was a rigger and made an error I would hope someone would let me know.....

Nice catch....



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