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Harness Turn?

 

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Lazarus_762  (A 67183)

Aug 20, 2012, 9:01 PM
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Harness Turn? Can't Post

I was reading an article from USPA about canopy piloting. It mentioned harness inputs for turns... sounds interessting - how do you do it? I understand toggle turns and riser turns but harness turns have me baffled...a little help here?

gracias!


diablopilot  (D License)

Aug 20, 2012, 9:03 PM
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Re: [Lazarus_762] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

Lean.


Lazarus_762  (A 67183)

Aug 20, 2012, 9:12 PM
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Re: [diablopilot] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

lean, like leaning on a motorcycle to induce horixontal forces, thereby vausing the airfoil shape to curve in its trajectory...hmm, need to cautiously experiment with such inputs in clear airspace with plenty of altitude. thanks!


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Aug 20, 2012, 9:21 PM
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Re: [Lazarus_762] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

On a larger canopy (especially a student canopy) you probably won't see much action from harness turns. But as canopies get smaller and more high-performance, they can become an important part of your turning tools.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 20, 2012, 9:23 PM
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Re: [Lazarus_762] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
lean, like leaning on a motorcycle to induce horixontal forces, thereby vausing the airfoil shape to curve in its trajectory...hmm, need to cautiously experiment with such inputs in clear airspace with plenty of altitude. thanks

You might be overthinking it a touch.

Either way, the sensitivity of the harness goes up with wing loading, so if you're jumping a student canopy with a low wing loading, don't expect much 'action' out of a harness turn.

You can either just lean to one side, or some people prefer to lift the opposite side, but the end result is one hip-junction is higher than the other. On a canopy with a lower WL, like anything under 1.3 or 1.4, just go ahead and lean into it will all of your might. It's not going to turn very fast, and I don't think it's possible to induce line twists with a harness turn on any canopy, so you should be 'safe' to really go for it.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 20, 2012, 9:50 PM
Post #6 of 26 (2423 views)
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Re: [Lazarus_762] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

>It mentioned harness inputs for turns... sounds interessting - how do you do it?

Try pulling one leg up and straightening the other one. The straight leg will pull down on that side of the harness and you'll turn. At larger canopy sizes the effect will be minor.


dthames  (B 37674)

Aug 21, 2012, 4:04 AM
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Re: [Lazarus_762] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.dropzone.com/...tail_page.cgi?ID=696

More reading for you.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Aug 21, 2012, 5:01 AM
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Re: [Lazarus_762] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

One trick on the lighter loaded larger canopies early on...depending on the canopy some are more sensitve to harness input while in brakes. Ealry on I would deploy higher on a solo pass from 5,500'. Clear and pull after 3 seconds. I would leave my toggles stowed after deployment and do exactly what earlier posters said with the legs. I would straighten one and lift the other. You may find you get a minor response even on a student canopy if you are a larger guy. That being said I must emphasize that you don't play around doing this too long, because you still will not have performed a controlability check as your toggles will still be stowed. So it is important to pull those toggles out and be able to decide if you can steer and flare it with plenty of time before your decision altitude.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 21, 2012, 8:29 AM
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Re: [Lazarus_762] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

Pull one knee up to your chest, while extending the other leg straight down towards the planet.
You will only get a slow turn on a lightly-loaded student canopy.
Harness turns are really only practical with wing-loadings exceeding one pound per square foot.


5.samadhi

Aug 21, 2012, 8:38 AM
Post #10 of 26 (2217 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
On a larger canopy (especially a student canopy) you probably won't see much action from harness turns. But as canopies get smaller and more high-performance, they can become an important part of your turning tools.
actually harness turns help a lot even on larger caopies. I fly a canopy loaded at .75:1 and harness turns noticeably turn my canopy with less toggle input needed for the same degree turn.


Quagmirian  (A 110392)

Aug 21, 2012, 9:08 AM
Post #11 of 26 (2198 views)
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Re: [Lazarus_762] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

I fly canopies in the 210 size, at a loading of 0.75:1. For ages, I kept on getting a very slow right turn under every canopy I flew. I checked everything, steering lines for twists or shrinkage, hand height and leg strap adjustment. In the end it turned out that one of my legs is thicker than the other, which would also explain why I was turning in freefall. So harness turns can have a small effect at lower wing loadings.


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Aug 21, 2012, 9:45 AM
Post #12 of 26 (2180 views)
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Re: [Lazarus_762] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

Even on lightly loaded canopies the old one leg up/one leg down trick can be great minor adjustment to keep you trimmed into wind on final. Just remember feet and knees together for landing.


buff  (D 30567)

Aug 21, 2012, 9:48 AM
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Re: [Quagmirian] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

Some things to try on student and every other canopy thereafter:

First clear your airspace,

After you open, slide your legstraps down so you are seated and they are more mid-thigh. Lean into the harness and observe what the canopy does.

Next lean left, an raise the right leg while putting pressure on the left leg strap by straightening the leg or pressing down hard with the left thigh.

Now let the wing recover and go to half brakes. Let the toggles up then do the above.

Start a toggle turn and as your body moves out from under the canopy, harness it while letting the toggle up and see if you can keep it in the turn.

As you downsize and the harness comes more into play, you will learn how you can maneouver and fly your whole approach with harness turns only. It's a tool for the tool box that alot of folks don't use but the harness is a control input just as much as four risers and two toggles. It just works better as wingloading goes up.


dthames  (B 37674)

Aug 21, 2012, 10:09 AM
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Even on lightly loaded canopies the old one leg up/one leg down trick can be great minor adjustment to keep you trimmed into wind on final. Just remember feet and knees together for landing.

I too have found that to be helpful. You can leave the toggles all the way up, and still make minor corrections.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Aug 21, 2012, 5:51 PM
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Re: [dthames] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Even on lightly loaded canopies the old one leg up/one leg down trick can be great minor adjustment to keep you trimmed into wind on final. Just remember feet and knees together for landing.

I too have found that to be helpful. You can leave the toggles all the way up, and still make minor corrections.

This can also be a great tool during deployment. You can esentially fly your canopy thru the opening sequence. Very helpful if you find yourself opening in traffic and your canopy decides to turn 30* to the left.

As stated above, try it high on a seperate pass. Remember, good body position is the best thing you can do to help your canopy open. These inputs should come after the canopy is inflated.


Lazarus_762  (A 67183)

Aug 21, 2012, 6:57 PM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks for all the great info guys! Beimg a Total FNG, I'll make sureI talk about all this with my instructors...cant wait to try it out!


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 21, 2012, 8:18 PM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This can also be a great tool during deployment. You can esentially fly your canopy thru the opening sequence. Very helpful if you find yourself opening in traffic and your canopy decides to turn 30* to the left.

As stated above, try it high on a seperate pass. Remember, good body position is the best thing you can do to help your canopy open. These inputs should come after the canopy is inflated.

If you're in the shit after opening - hauling a rear is a better option.


5.samadhi

Aug 21, 2012, 8:54 PM
Post #18 of 26 (1962 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
This can also be a great tool during deployment. You can esentially fly your canopy thru the opening sequence. Very helpful if you find yourself opening in traffic and your canopy decides to turn 30* to the left.

As stated above, try it high on a seperate pass. Remember, good body position is the best thing you can do to help your canopy open. These inputs should come after the canopy is inflated.

If you're in the shit after opening - hauling a rear is a better option.
or popping toggles and immediately doing a braked turn


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 21, 2012, 8:57 PM
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Re: [5.samadhi] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

If you're in the shit after opening - hauling a rear is a better option.
or popping toggles and immediately doing a braked turn
Better than a harness turn - possibly.
Better than hitting a rear - no.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 21, 2012, 9:41 PM
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Re: [5.samadhi] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
or popping toggles and immediately doing a braked turn

No. Popping the toggles requires the jumper to get a grip on both toggles (and despite your BASE jumping desires, most skydivers do not use big grab toggles), and then it requires both brakes to release cleanly or you have just made two problems out of one. You started off with an imminent canopy collision, and have now added a canopy with a comprimised control system.

The rear riser turn can be accomplished with a grip anywhere on the rear riser, and will result in a more effective amount of response vs. the amount of input required. Pulling a toggle only effects the tail of the canopy, while pulling a rear riser will effect the entire back half of the canopy.

Another advantage is being able to grab the rears while keeping your eyes on the traffic hazzard. If you have to look up to grab your toggles, you're not watching the guy you're in a rush to avoid. It's much easier to grab the rears sight unseen, while continuing to watch the other guy.

Back to your BASE intentions, check with your mentors, and they'll tell you that rear risers can be used to turn, brake turn, stall turn, or back up your canopy if you open facing an object. Again, quicker and more reliable than going for toggles.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Aug 21, 2012, 9:50 PM
Post #21 of 26 (1953 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
or popping toggles and immediately doing a braked turn

No. Popping the toggles requires the jumper to get a grip on both toggles (and despite your BASE jumping desires, most skydivers do not use big grab toggles), and then it requires both brakes to release cleanly or you have just made two problems out of one. You started off with an imminent canopy collision, and have now added a canopy with a comprimised control system.

The rear riser turn can be accomplished with a grip anywhere on the rear riser, and will result in a more effective amount of response vs. the amount of input required. Pulling a toggle only effects the tail of the canopy, while pulling a rear riser will effect the entire back half of the canopy.

Another advantage is being able to grab the rears while keeping your eyes on the traffic hazzard. If you have to look up to grab your toggles, you're not watching the guy you're in a rush to avoid. It's much easier to grab the rears sight unseen, while continuing to watch the other guy.

Back to your BASE intentions, check with your mentors, and they'll tell you that rear risers can be used to turn, brake turn, stall turn, or back up your canopy if you open facing an object. Again, quicker and more reliable than going for toggles.

All this is true, but you can still fly your canopy using harness imput long before you can reach risers. This is not a "one or the other" answer.

Many tools a box should carry? Wink


(This post was edited by skyjumpenfool on Aug 21, 2012, 9:51 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 21, 2012, 10:01 PM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
All this is true, but you can still fly your canopy using harness imput long before you can reach risers. This is not a "one or the other" answer.

Many tools a box should carry?

In this case, the discussion is about taking evasive action in the event of a possible collision on opening. Even my Velo at 2.0 does not provide the same 'instant' turn you can get from rears or toggles. Anyone with less canopy or at a lower WL will have even less response, and I think it's a mistake to put a harness turn forward as a tool for collision avoidance.

Case in point, I would split hairs down to the differences between the time it takes to grip and release a toggle vs, the time it takes to grip and pull a rear riser, and call the rear riser the clear choice in a collision.

I would further split hairs calling the time it takes to make a full toggle stroke vs the time it takes to make a full rear riser input, and call the rear riser again the superior choice.

Time is of the essence in these situations, and given the amount of 'suck' that comes with a wrap, I would say that the 1 or 1.5 seconds of time you save using the rears vs the toggles makes the rears the outstanding winning choice. Compare that to the turn rate/responsiveness of the harness turn, and you can see how I would not even mention that option in this circumstance.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Aug 21, 2012, 10:02 PM)


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 21, 2012, 10:05 PM
Post #23 of 26 (1942 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

All this is true, but you can still fly your canopy using harness imput long before you can reach risers. This is not a "one or the other" answer.

Many tools a box should carry? Wink

You may be able to initiate a harness turn faster while you are reaching for a rear riser, but the rate of that turn is going to be significantly slower on all but highly loaded ellipticals and x-braces and may not be enough to get you out of trouble.

In other words the total time take to reach up, grab a rear and turn 45 degrees would be significantly less than the time taken to initiate a harness turn and allow it to turn 45 degrees. This time differential gets larger as the WL of the canopy gets lower.


(This post was edited by DocPop on Aug 21, 2012, 10:07 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 22, 2012, 10:07 AM
Post #24 of 26 (1835 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

>This can also be a great tool during deployment. You can esentially fly your canopy
>thru the opening sequence.

Agreed - but a caveat there is that with many canopies, trying to fly them through deployment greatly increases your odds of a spinner or other problem opening. Canopies are designed to open symmetrically, with an even load placed on both sets of lines. Rapidly varying the positions/tensions on the lines can contribute to problem openings - spinners, slammers and off-headers.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Aug 23, 2012, 6:43 PM
Post #25 of 26 (1685 views)
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Re: [billvon] Harness Turn? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>This can also be a great tool during deployment. You can esentially fly your canopy
>thru the opening sequence.

Agreed - but a caveat there is that with many canopies, trying to fly them through deployment greatly increases your odds of a spinner or other problem opening. Canopies are designed to open symmetrically, with an even load placed on both sets of lines. Rapidly varying the positions/tensions on the lines can contribute to problem openings - spinners, slammers and off-headers.

Agreed!! Which is why I stated above...
try it high on a seperate pass. Remember, good body position is the best thing you can do to help your canopy open.

I'm not advocating using harness input as a manuver to avoid a canopy collision. I am, however, saying you can use harness inputs to help your canopy open "on heading" whereby you may avoid the situation in the first place.


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