Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading

 

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martwald

Aug 17, 2012, 9:13 AM
Post #1 of 40 (2160 views)
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Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading Can't Post

Looking for advice on Katana 150 vs Stiletto 150

I am very familiar with a Springo 160 (for those of you not familiar, it's an 9 cell elliptical canopy); I have always found it very comfortable to fly, never found landings challenging etc...

I am buying a new canopy and in the past would have considered a Stiletto 150 but given how old that design is I am instead looking at a Katana 150 loaded at 1.4.

My reasoning for is that the Katana incorporates a lot of advances since the Stiletto was designed; one minor concern is that the Katana seems to be a step beyond the Stiletto.

I would appreciate user comments on this.

Now the main question: I am concerned that the loading of 1.4 (at 220lbs exit weight) might be a bit low for a Katana (not in the sweet spot); whereas 1.4 on a Stiletto is bang in the sweet spot.

Again comments appreciated.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 17, 2012, 9:26 AM
Post #2 of 40 (2138 views)
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Re: [martwald] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

totally different canopies - with different design goals

if you say what type of flying you want to do, there's a lot of knowledgable canopy experts here -

but asking what's better, is like asking if a hammer or an apple is better - it depends on if you want to smash things or eat something


I love my Stiletto, and not a fan of the Katana when I fly it. But if I was a serious swooper, I'd prefer the Katana - FWIW


martwald

Aug 17, 2012, 9:59 AM
Post #3 of 40 (2117 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay then:

I am mildly interested in swooping but I'll never (famous last words) be a hardcore swooper, fancy my legs too much.

I just like to fly a reasonably fast canopy, not a fan of docile canopies, found the springo a bit tame, hence the want to change.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 17, 2012, 10:08 AM
Post #4 of 40 (2109 views)
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Re: [martwald] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

The Katana is a balls-out swoop machine.

For the "mildly interested" jumper interested in a bit of speed, a slightly smaller Sabre2 might be a better answer.

I had a KA135 loaded at 1.5 and the openings were nowhere near as good as my 120 @ 1.7.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Aug 17, 2012, 10:57 AM
Post #5 of 40 (2077 views)
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Re: [martwald] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

First, read everything PD has to say about both canopies on their web site. Then call PD and tell them what you want. They'll have a lot better advice than what you'll get here.
My personal view...
The Katan is a dedicated swoop canopy. If that's what youwant, that's what to get.
The Stiletto is a more all-around canopy, especially at 1.5 wing loading like you'll be at (and I'm at on my Stiletto).
The Stiletto has longer glide in brakes, you can flat turn it down low and has a short recovery arc. As long as you don't try to do super-intense swoops (because of the short recovery, you need to start things down pretty low to really get the max out of the stiletto, so don't do that) it's a great canopy. The control response is quicker than most any other canopy, so you have to pay attention and not go too far. I swore I got hit by crosswind gusts every tenth landing until I realized that I was sometimes pulling down one toggle just a little more that the other.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 17, 2012, 11:09 AM
Post #6 of 40 (2066 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

this ^



based on your post #3 - Stiletto. But I like UFK22's response - the guys at PD are fantastic and really know their stuff. Do more homework and ask the right guys.

I fly my stiletto at about 1.8 - it's a ton of fun and I get decent swoops when I'm so inclined, but if I was serious about swooping, I'd likely switch over and get some coaching on a more appropriate canopy.

Not everybody cares to swoop too. So be real sure what YOU want to do because some people only speak to swooping without talking about the rest of the flight experience which be more important to you (or not).


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Aug 17, 2012, 11:14 AM)


MikeJD  (D 10605)

Aug 17, 2012, 12:01 PM
Post #7 of 40 (2033 views)
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Re: [martwald] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

As an all-round canopy I would say the Stiletto too. I like my Katana well enough, but one thing to realise is that (by design) it is extremely ground-hungry. I do miss the less aggressive glide angle of the Stiletto.

I guess the bigger question is, why just limit your choice to two designs? Even if you want to stick strictly to PD there are several other options, any of which might be worth considering.


(This post was edited by MikeJD on Aug 17, 2012, 12:02 PM)


padraigbrowne  (E 507)

Aug 17, 2012, 1:18 PM
Post #8 of 40 (2002 views)
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Re: [MikeJD] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you considered a Crossfire2 ? Way ahead of the springo stiletto and close to the Katana without the attempts to kill you on every jump .
I have a good few jumps on em all . The Katana is not for those who only jump from time to time . The openings require attention , and it is slow to pull out of a low turn ( I have the x-rays ) After progressing to a smaller velocity I found the Katana lost more height in a similar turn and required as much skill and attention as a Velo to fly .

The crossfire2 has awesome openings and will be as much fun to fly and swoop , but just not as much of a handful .

hope this helps


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 17, 2012, 3:06 PM
Post #9 of 40 (1954 views)
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Re: [martwald] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

Based on what you've said so far I'd recommend a Crossfire. You get much of the performance of the Katana without the ground-hungriness. Also consider the Safire; more well behaved but still capable of swooping (and the openings are much better than the Crossfire.)

Of the two you listed be aware that they are polar opposites in terms of descent rate. The Stiletto is one of the flatter-trimmed canopies out there; the Katana is one of the steepest.


5.samadhi

Aug 17, 2012, 8:58 PM
Post #10 of 40 (1909 views)
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Re: [billvon] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

do you mean the original crossfire or the crossfire2???


Martini  (D 23756)

Aug 17, 2012, 9:15 PM
Post #11 of 40 (1904 views)
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Re: [martwald] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
1.4 on a Stiletto is bang in the sweet spot.

As an observation and by no means a criticism your impression of the Stiletto is quite conservative, I don't believe that either the Stiletto or the Katana will make you happy. Definitely talk to PD, they're great.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 17, 2012, 9:19 PM
Post #12 of 40 (1900 views)
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Re: [billvon] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Of the two you listed be aware that they are polar opposites in terms of descent rate. The Stiletto is one of the flatter-trimmed canopies out there; the Katana is one of the steepest.

What's interesting is that they're both expert level canopies, but the fact that a jumper would lump them together as close competitors show a decidedly non-expert level of understanding about canopies.

It makes me wonder what else he doesn't know, and if he's going to find that stuff out the hard way.


martwald

Aug 18, 2012, 5:01 AM
Post #13 of 40 (1875 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

I am actually very aware of the differences and the weakness pointed out in your post; I am just researching. In reality I'd love something with the swooping ability of the Katana but the decent rate of the Stiletto.

Will take a better look at the Crossfire2; and some others; definately looks like the Katana isn't for me, Stiletto probably or Crossfire2.

Thank you all, v helpful


(This post was edited by martwald on Aug 18, 2012, 5:13 AM)


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 18, 2012, 12:20 PM
Post #14 of 40 (1834 views)
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Re: [padraigbrowne] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
After progressing to a smaller velocity I found the Katana lost more height in a similar turn and required as much skill and attention as a Velo to fly .

If that's the case then why does the Katana even exist? I have about 400 jumps on Katanas and none on Velos, but from doing high pulls with people on Velos I can see that they have considerably more range than the Katana.

I was under the impression that Velos were less forgiving and that the Katana was a stepping stone to a Velo. If the Velo is a better wing, but takes the same degree of skill to fly - why doesn't everyone jump a Velo?


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 18, 2012, 12:27 PM
Post #15 of 40 (1828 views)
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Re: [martwald] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reality I'd love something with the swooping ability of the Katana but the decent rate of the Stiletto.

This probably illustrates Dave's point about what you don't know.

Modern swooping canopies tend to be trimmed steeply to allow a lot of dive during the turn to build speed. By its very nature, this results in a canopy with a steep glide ratio.

Without knowing your experience and where you are in your swooping progression, the right answer could be a Sabre2 or a Velocity (which can be flown much flatter than a KA with the right input) or something else entirely but you're not giving us much to go on.


hackish  (No License)

Aug 18, 2012, 7:46 PM
Post #16 of 40 (1797 views)
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Re: Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't quite understand why so many people view the katana as a suicide machine for all but the most experienced. Like any high performance canopy you have to fly the openings but less than others I've jumped.

I quite like the openings. I'm only mildly interested in swooping but happen to like the way it handles and flares. I usually fly mine on camera jumps and at most they get a harness turn for landing.

I think the best choice would be to demo each and make the decision based on how you feel. Let's face it you wouldn't buy a car without a test drive first would you?

-Michael


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Aug 18, 2012, 11:00 PM
Post #17 of 40 (1783 views)
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Re: [hackish] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't quite understand why so many people view the katana as a suicide machine for all but the most experienced.

It's about how much time you have to correct your flying mistakes close to the ground. A steeper dive makes getting out of things harder.

In reply to:
Like any high performance canopy you have to fly the openings but less than others I've jumped.

Openings aren't a big deal. You screw up, you cutaway, and land under a conservative canopy. The repack is mildly annoying although you can sometimes bribe a rigger to get it done sooner so you're not out of commission for the weekend when you only have one rig.

OTOH, what happens after a low turn to get back into the wind is a big deal.

Here's a Stiletto 150 fatality with just a 1.2 wing loading and 480 jumps:

http://www.dropzone.com/...rum.cgi?post=3709212


Divalent  (C 40494)

Aug 19, 2012, 8:37 AM
Post #18 of 40 (1732 views)
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

Fixed your link:

http://www.dropzone.com/...rum.cgi?post=3709212


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 19, 2012, 10:14 AM
Post #19 of 40 (1719 views)
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Re: [hackish] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't quite understand why so many people view the katana as a suicide machine for all but the most experienced. Like any high performance canopy you have to fly the openings but less than others I've jumped.

My experience is that I get the best openings when I don't try to fly them and just remain neutral and symmetrical in the harness. I have had line twists once with my KAs using this method.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Aug 19, 2012, 12:24 PM
Post #20 of 40 (1702 views)
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's about how much time you have to correct your flying mistakes close to the ground. A steeper dive makes getting out of things harder.
It's a compromise. I short recovery arc means months or year if you are coming in low....

Tool for the purpose! Katana and Stiletto is a completely different purpose.


hokierower  (B 36150)

Aug 19, 2012, 12:48 PM
Post #21 of 40 (1700 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

Kind of off topic, but does anyone know what the pitch/glide angle is on the Sabre2? I heard that the Katana & Velo were both 14 degrees and was just wondering what neighborhood the SA resided in.


(This post was edited by hokierower on Aug 19, 2012, 1:04 PM)


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 19, 2012, 4:35 PM
Post #22 of 40 (1672 views)
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Re: [hokierower] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Kind of off topic, but does anyone know what the pitch/glide angle is on the Sabre2? I heard that the Katana & Velo were both 14 degrees and was just wondering what neighborhood the SA resided in.

I don't know the numbers, but coming off a SA2 to a KA, the difference was striking when I popped the brakes.


hokierower  (B 36150)

Aug 19, 2012, 6:53 PM
Post #23 of 40 (1635 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Kind of off topic, but does anyone know what the pitch/glide angle is on the Sabre2? I heard that the Katana & Velo were both 14 degrees and was just wondering what neighborhood the SA resided in.

I don't know the numbers, but coming off a SA2 to a KA, the difference was striking when I popped the brakes.

I did a high pull with a stiletto loaded at 1.7/8 and I was amazed at how quickly my SA2 at 1.45 sank out on the stiletto.


Halfpastniner  (D 30747)

Aug 19, 2012, 8:01 PM
Post #24 of 40 (1619 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
After progressing to a smaller velocity I found the Katana lost more height in a similar turn and required as much skill and attention as a Velo to fly .


I was under the impression that Velos were less forgiving and that the Katana was a stepping stone to a Velo. If the Velo is a better wing, but takes the same degree of skill to fly - why doesn't everyone jump a Velo?

Cuz the Ka works better with lower WL. Its a great stepping stone, but once you jump the Velo the Katana goes up for sale!


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 19, 2012, 11:12 PM
Post #25 of 40 (1601 views)
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Re: [Halfpastniner] Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Cuz the Ka works better with lower WL. Its a great stepping stone, but once you jump the Velo the Katana goes up for sale!

Aha! Makes perfect sense!

I am fighting the urge to jump a Velo for just that reason!

Must. Get. Katana. Fully. Dialled. In. First.


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